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russian armor

T34 Ram Ability at 50% health is OP, LOL!

28 Jan 2021, 12:02 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17541 | Subs: 8



To be fair though it is impossible to avoid those "long, linear" maps in any mode but 1v1. 2v2 has/had probably the worst amount of this type, but there are plenty of maps in other modes as well where Ele and JP fare exceptionally well. These are not even the linear ones only.

True, but OKW does not have this problem due to JP4 and for ost, sending recon, barraging ATGs with indirect and just moving in with panthers and inf is perfectly viable alternative that works, at least in 2s.
Lets also not forget that vipper always comes from a point of rushing panther alone with no support against whatever opponent got on its side and somehow, magically, his opponents always have the sight to utilize maximum range while he never knows what's there.
28 Jan 2021, 12:08 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12195 | Subs: 1



Panther is strong in team games. And OKW has the JP4 that is tailored towards countering TDs.

But some of the heavy tanks are still a mess right know, in 3v3+ it's Elefant, JT and ISU all day every day.

It was direct response to a quote,an analogy. The situation of Soviet vs Elefant/JT is similar to Axis vs allied TDs.

As for JP4 it can zoned allied TDs but taking them is another story.

As long as Allied TDs are so cost efficient Elefant and JT will also need to be strong.
28 Jan 2021, 12:09 PM
#23
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



Panther is strong in team games. And OKW has the JP4 that is tailored towards countering TDs.

But some of the heavy tanks are still a mess right know, in 3v3+ it's Elefant, JT and ISU all day every day.


hm... nerf ISU, than Elefant and Jagdtiger arn't needed anymore and can be nerfed too, because there is no need form them. For me, my team doesn't use these units anymore. Jagdpanzer4 and PaK40 is all I need.

Edit:

1. Jagdtiger has too fast rotation. The unit should be made so unatractive, that nobody wants it, if not 4vs4.

2. Elefant is more or less ~ok~. For me a useless unit if there is no ISU

3. ISU should be redesigned, remove HE switch. Give it a long-range HE ability like SU76 instead. -> now you can play with PaK40 again.
28 Jan 2021, 12:15 PM
#24
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2386 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 12:02 PMKatitof

True, but OKW does not have this problem due to JP4 and for ost, sending recon, barraging ATGs with indirect and just moving in with panthers and inf is perfectly viable alternative that works, at least in 2s.

I am not agreeing with Vipper's general point, but the map design in large modes absolutely dictates you to pick 1 or 2 commanders, otherwise you have lost. It is good that you have to adjust your playstyle to the maps, but in many cases it is a bit too much.
Ostheer mostly relies on Panthers though in the late game since PaKs regularly get eaten by arty to (best case) reset the veterancy or worst case destroy the whole thing.


jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 12:02 PMKatitof

...

Your personal quarrels with Vipper fit better into a PM.

In what I agree though is that an Ele/JT is by far the most reliable way to shut down Allied TDs, PaKs are always vulnerable and JP4s only awayable to OKW plus they will need constant repairs, whereas you can safely take pot shots with an Elefant and win on the micro game and repair less than others. That's why it is overly popular.
28 Jan 2021, 12:20 PM
#25
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3109 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 12:08 PMVipper
As for JP4 it can zoned allied TDs but taking them is another story.

It comfortably beats the Jackson and the Firefly due to its vastly superior (effective) DPM and its accuracy advantage, and versing the SU-85 is an even fight until it gets its camo and 800 hp at vet 2, after which it also beats that one. TLDR the Jagdpanzer is an excellent counter to Allied TDs.


but there are plenty of maps in other modes as well where Ele and JP fare exceptionally well

Jaeger Armor is the biggest issue because of how much it brings to the table, and it will get a nerf in the upcoming patch (Stuka Dive Bomb will be switched out for Stuka AT Strafe) along with the ISU commanders nerfs. If it's up to me, it would also lose its self spotting with the spotting scope next patch so you actually need to accompany it with a scout unit.
28 Jan 2021, 12:25 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2386 | Subs: 2



hm... nerf ISU, than Elefant and Jagdtiger arn't needed anymore and can be nerfed too, because there is no need form them. For me, my team doesn't use these units anymore. Jagdpanzer4 and PaK40 is all I need.

Actually I think some of this could potentially be done already this patch.
ISU gets its HE shell nerfed to range 60 which was it's main strength. I think JT and Ele could get some minor nerfs (probably armor) as well. But let's see. They might still be part of the next patch that works on commanders and commander units.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 12:08 PMVipper

It was direct response to a quote,an analogy. The situation of Soviet vs Elefant/JT is similar to Axis vs allied TDs.

As for JP4 it can zoned allied TDs but taking them is another story.

As long as Allied TDs are so cost efficient Elefant and JT will also need to be strong.

Axis do have options, it's just that Ele and JT are the safest and most efficient ones.

A JP4 can't get zoned by Allied TDs because they have the same range. And the only unit that can get away quickly is the Jackson. The moment of surprise will give you enough of a headstart already that the SU85 takes a long time to break even and get away.
28 Jan 2021, 12:26 PM
#27
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392


Jaeger Armor is the biggest issue because of how much it brings to the table, and it will get a nerf in the upcoming patch (Stuka Dive Bomb will be switched out for Stuka AT Strafe) along with the ISU commander nerfs. If it's up to me, it would also lose its self spotting with the spotting scope next patch so you actually need to accompany it with a scout unit.


Good changes. I still think, Elefant isn't the problem here, it is ISU and Jagdtiger.

ISU is and Jagdtiger are cancer in 3vs3+, Elefant is really decent, because it can only deal versus vehicles. There is still the option to fight with AT-guns.
28 Jan 2021, 12:28 PM
#28
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2386 | Subs: 2


Jaeger Armor is the biggest issue because of how much it brings to the table, and it will get a nerf in the upcoming patch (Stuka Dive Bomb will be switched out for Stuka AT Strafe) along with the ISU commander nerfs. If it's up to me, it would also lose its self spotting with the spotting scope next patch so you actually need to accompany it with a scout unit.

Yes I agree. I am quite interested in what the next patch will bring, but I also think a lot of issues are at least partially related more to map design than actual balance.

I am looking forward to which and how commanders will be reworked.
28 Jan 2021, 12:29 PM
#29
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392


Actually I think some of this could potentially be done already this patch.
ISU gets its HE shell nerfed to range 60 which was it's main strength. I think JT and Ele could get some minor nerfs (probably armor) as well. But let's see. They might still be part of the next patch that works on commanders and commander units.


Maybe, I still think regular HE is too potential for ISU, because Soviets have so many arty-abilities and they have no munition-problems. ISU fills a role which isn't needed to be filled. An ability like SU76 or Brummbär would be fine.

Edit: If you want HE play KV2.
28 Jan 2021, 12:31 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17541 | Subs: 8


I am not agreeing with Vipper's general point, but the map design in large modes absolutely dictates you to pick 1 or 2 commanders, otherwise you have lost. It is good that you have to adjust your playstyle to the maps, but in many cases it is a bit too much.
Ostheer mostly relies on Panthers though in the late game since PaKs regularly get eaten by arty to (best case) reset the veterancy or worst case destroy the whole thing.

Tbh, all factions relay on their top end TD because ATGs get decrewed easily, and now its going to be even easier to do so. But I do see your point about the maps.

Your personal quarrels with Vipper fit better into a PM.

It was not personal attack (if it was I'd be more creative), but actual description of what he does in games.
You'll see what I mean here when you'll be blessed of being matched up with or against him, you'll instantly understand why everything is problematic to him.

In what I agree though is that an Ele/JT is by far the most reliable way to shut down Allied TDs, PaKs are always vulnerable and JP4s only awayable to OKW plus they will need constant repairs, whereas you can safely take pot shots with an Elefant and win on the micro game and repair less than others. That's why it is overly popular.

True, but that stems from team games specifically, the resource inflation and overabundance of fuel, resulting in easier time getting and replacing armor then it is in 1s where map is constantly contested or 2s, where the only reason to get ele/jt is ISU and the latter is getting another heavy nerf now.
Its a need that originates from circumstances of game modes, not from effectiveness of TDs themselves.
In 2s you can do fine without it, but above that its mandatory.
28 Jan 2021, 13:13 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12195 | Subs: 1


It comfortably beats the Jackson and the Firefly due to its vastly superior (effective) DPM and its accuracy advantage, and versing the SU-85 is an even fight until it gets its camo and 800 hp at vet 2, after which it also beats that one. TLDR the Jagdpanzer is an excellent counter to Allied TDs.
...

My point is that it can beat them in slug fight but chasing them to killing them in game is another story.


Axis do have options, it's just that Ele and JT are the safest and most efficient ones.

Yes this accurate and actually close to my pointed I simply worded it differently (worse) be more inline with what I responding to.


A JP4 can't get zoned by Allied TDs because they have the same range. And the only unit that can get away quickly is the Jackson. The moment of surprise will give you enough of a headstart already that the SU85 takes a long time to break even and get away.


The comment was the other way round. JP can keep allied TDs at distance but it has hard time actually killing them due to difference in mobility.
28 Jan 2021, 13:21 PM
#32
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3109 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 13:13 PMVipper
My point is that it can beat them in slug fight but chasing them to killing them in game is another story


That hardly matters. You don't win the game only by killing the enemy units, you generally win it by effectively neutralising them so they can't bother your own units. Which the JP4 is excellent for.

Only the Jackson can reliably escape it anyway.
28 Jan 2021, 13:28 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12195 | Subs: 1



That hardly matters. You don't win the game only by killing the enemy units, you win it by effectively neutralising them so they can't bother your own units. Which the JP4 is excellent for.

It does matter.

In addition the JP4 cost about the same (or even more) then most allied TDs, has about the same XP value (or even more), has about the same Pop (or even more) when most counters are cheaper.

In sort it a huge investment that might or might not work while still one need to win the infatry fight.

If it was a truly "excellent" choice I would expect to be used more.
28 Jan 2021, 13:30 PM
#34
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2386 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 13:13 PMVipper

The comment was the other way round. JP can keep allied TDs at distance but it has hard time actually killing them due to difference in mobility.

It is always hard to kill a unit if your best performance is at the very edge of your range. Allied TDs are also not meant to dive.

But since you mention speed specifically:
What you say is true only for the Jackson. Firefly is slower and SU85 not much faster. As I pointed out, if you already start with 5-10 meters advantage due to the surprise attack then the SU85 has a hard time to leave.
But speed of a vehicle does not necessarily matter as much, otherwise it would be impossible to kill a Panther. Volume of fire and a bit of RNG is probably more decisive than gaining a couple of meters. On the defense it's usually the most effective to get around sight and shot blockers.
Pip
28 Jan 2021, 14:12 PM
#35
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1519


While you are not wrong, the issue is that soviet don't really have any other answer to elefants and JTs. Heavy tanks can be gunned down by SU85s but the case mates are a lil tougher to go nose to nose. Without some reliable tool to flank they are helpless against them


True, but similarly to the overperformance of the T-70; Soviet need to have changed made to them to allow them to deal with these things without resorting to gimmicky crutches.
28 Jan 2021, 14:26 PM
#36
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 834 | Subs: 1


Jaeger Armor is the biggest issue because of how much it brings to the table, and it will get a nerf in the upcoming patch (Stuka Dive Bomb will be switched out for Stuka AT Strafe) along with the ISU commanders nerfs.


Nice to hear that you already started the work on the commander patch!
Nerfing commanders that bring too much to the table is an underused option to make 2nd or 3rd tier commanders more attractive. The faction that suffers the most from this powercreep are the Soviets imo because 3 commanders (SU-152 commanders and Shock Rifle Frontline with Shocks, good offmap AND 2 nondoc tanks) offer you so much while so many other commanders are just boring and bad designed with huge overlaps.
OKW had the same problem with Specops when the CP was a call in unit. Funny enough that nobody used RS back in the days when every OKW player used SO in the tournies. With RS, Flares, call in tank + infiltration tactics it was op as hell.
US commander pool would also win if Mechanized would loose some stuff.



28 Jan 2021, 14:46 PM
#37
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5249

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 14:12 PMPip


True, but similarly to the overperformance of the T-70; Soviet need to have changed made to them to allow them to deal with these things without resorting to gimmicky crutches.

I agree entirely. For years I have been saying that every faction needs non doc answers for everything. I'm a huge supporter on the idea of boosting medium tanks close range pen so that they can be a viable alternative to frontally head butting armour with TDs.

But as it is the zis isn't going to force off an elefant (nor should it) both soviet TDs are casemate and will lose that nose to nose fight and even with the buff, PTRS' arnt going to have the time to sit and plink away against even an easy bot.
28 Jan 2021, 14:52 PM
#38
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5249

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 13:28 PMVipper

It does matter.

In addition the JP4 cost about the same (or even more) then most allied TDs, has about the same XP value (or even more), has about the same Pop (or even more) when most counters are cheaper.

In sort it a huge investment that might or might not work while still one need to win the infatry fight.

If it was a truly "excellent" choice I would expect to be used more.

For the same price yuu sre denying the enemy use of theirs. They may not have to replace the TDs but not being able to use them despite the heavy reliance on them is huge.

This is more or less what we're talking about with the elefant and JT. Because they sure as shit can't chase, but being able to deny the enemy armour is nearly as good.
If the unit isn't able to do its job it is countered.
28 Jan 2021, 20:23 PM
#39
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3200 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 13:28 PMVipper

It does matter.

Why? Sander gave a good reason it doesn't

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2021, 13:28 PMVipper

In addition the JP4 cost about the same (or even more) then most allied TDs, has about the same XP value (or even more), has about the same Pop (or even more) when most counters are cheaper.

It's 5 more than su85 and 10 less then FF or m36. If a 10 fuel difference is "about the same" saying "even more" for just 5 is a strange choice

JP4 is a great choice in team games. Basically necessary in 3s and 4s
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