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russian armor

What to do with Radio Silence?

28 Jan 2021, 21:06 PM
#41
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 31



Speed bonus =/= sprint

Infantry with Tactical Movement run much faster.

Sorry. Its +1 speed. From 3 to 4 so its 1.33 instead.

My bad. That really changes everything. Perfectly balanced…

28 Jan 2021, 21:10 PM
#42
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

Tactical Movement isn't really a useful point of comparison just because of how weak it is. (also you forgot tactical movement is CP2 vs the CP0 of radio silence)
28 Jan 2021, 21:16 PM
#43
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 31

Ill keep the criticism constructive.

Radio silence needs a price and duration adjustment. Infantry firing on the move is what makes it OP.
(the problem that it causes for tac map users should also be acknowledged)
28 Jan 2021, 23:05 PM
#44
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Yea I'm not sure the 0.13 speed of tac movement really offsets the 3x as long duration, 2cp earlier, and hidden from mini map effects...
28 Jan 2021, 23:30 PM
#45
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Sorry. Its +1 speed. From 3 to 4 so its 1.33 instead.

Yea I'm not sure the 0.13 speed of tac movement really offsets the 3x as long duration,


It does not give +1 speed, it gives +1 posture_speed. So a higher speed "level" with a predetermined/standardised speed increase. Tactical Movement increases infantry movement speed from around 3.5 standard (barely able to keep up with a Tiger II at 3.8 speed) to around 5.6 (barely being able to keep up with a Brummbar at 5.7 speed). Around a 50% increase; probably a straight 1.5 because I had to guess the speed values. More than double RS' 1.2 movement speed bonus.

Tactical Movement isn't a very good comparison anyway because it's a meh ability. It's mostly just there to balance out some commanders.
29 Jan 2021, 01:17 AM
#46
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2




It does not give +1 speed, it gives +1 posture_speed. So a higher speed "level" with a predetermined/standardised speed increase. Tactical Movement increases infantry movement speed from around 3.5 standard (barely able to keep up with a Tiger II at 3.8 speed) to around 5.6 (barely being able to keep up with a Brummbar at 5.7 speed). Around a 50% increase; probably a straight 1.5 because I had to guess the speed values. More than double RS' 1.2 movement speed bonus.

Tactical Movement isn't a very good comparison anyway because it's a meh ability. It's mostly just there to balance out some commanders.


How about we turn radio silence into a meh ability aswell in order to balance out Spec Ops?
29 Jan 2021, 01:36 AM
#47
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

Yes let's try with a cost and cool down increase. Should stop the spamming
29 Jan 2021, 01:51 AM
#48
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1844 | Subs: 1

If we're dead set on keeping the speed boost why not change it so that squads have sprint ability during the duration of Radio Silence (can either be free or cost something) That way it requires some micro and it is a timed tactical choice instead of a YOLO blob tool.

Another implementation idea might be that it's a passive that allows (Sturms? Volks?) to build pathfinder beacons for some cost - those beacons can be either AOE or a highlighted zone targeted effect that exudes the Mini Map effect or some iteration thereof. Beacons have detection radius and can be destroyed.
29 Jan 2021, 08:59 AM
#49
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1




It does not give +1 speed, it gives +1 posture_speed. So a higher speed "level" with a predetermined/standardised speed increase. Tactical Movement increases infantry movement speed from around 3.5 standard (barely able to keep up with a Tiger II at 3.8 speed) to around 5.6 (barely being able to keep up with a Brummbar at 5.7 speed). Around a 50% increase; probably a straight 1.5 because I had to guess the speed values. More than double RS' 1.2 movement speed bonus.

Tactical Movement isn't a very good comparison anyway because it's a meh ability. It's mostly just there to balance out some commanders.


Is this a Troll post?
29 Jan 2021, 10:00 AM
#50
avatar of Thamor

Posts: 290

I would say keep the bonuses as they are, but for 40 muni 60 second duration might be too long.

a) Increase munition cost to 60-70
b) decrease duration to 30-45 seconds.
29 Jan 2021, 10:52 AM
#51
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885

My recommendation is to just remove the speed boost during combat (or have a very short window during combat and normal effect outside of combat). I never liked relying on the minimap/tacmap to begin with, glancing at unit icons for alerts if they were ambushed or taking huge sudden bursts of dmg (grenades). (Looking at you commandoes and shocks/smg inf hiding behind LOS blockers). By the time you see those units on the minimap it's way way too late and you need to have that unit selected NOW!

EDIT: Also applies to Falls ambushing and them sending you gift baskets to the face. As a general rule, I dislike any mechanic/ability which incentivises blobbing (lol USF) and Radio Silence during combat does that :/
31 Jan 2021, 04:44 AM
#52
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 132

Personally I think it would just be best to ditch the mini map disruption entirely. Let the ability camouflage your units and give them the speed bonus. Would keep the ability still very useful but not back breaking for those that rely on the mini map. Obviously once in combat the abilities would go away but it would make for a potentially potent first strike tool.

Tbh I think Spec Ops needs a lot more work than just this ability. Like I think an overhaul to the command Panther would be a good change. Stuff like giving it useful tactical abilities instead of just making it a self spotting Panther. Plus the flares need to be dealt with.

31 Jan 2021, 12:57 PM
#53
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

what about if your own units dissaper from the mini map as well?

this makes sense, since you have radio silenced you cannot communicate with the sqads yourself.

that way you would fix the tac map issue for 1vs1 while keeping the ability interesting.

the ability is still worth it since you get the speed buff and not seeing your own units is not as bad as not seeing the enmies units
31 Jan 2021, 13:03 PM
#54
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460

My recommendation is to just remove the speed boost during combat (or have a very short window during combat and normal effect outside of combat). I never liked relying on the minimap/tacmap to begin with, glancing at unit icons for alerts if they were ambushed or taking huge sudden bursts of dmg (grenades). (Looking at you commandoes and shocks/smg inf hiding behind LOS blockers). By the time you see those units on the minimap it's way way too late and you need to have that unit selected NOW!

EDIT: Also applies to Falls ambushing and them sending you gift baskets to the face. As a general rule, I dislike any mechanic/ability which incentivises blobbing (lol USF) and Radio Silence during combat does that :/


And Pgrens, and pretty much any infantry that has a nuke nade. Unless you're paying attention to that unit, you can kiss 3+ models goodbye with often wipes ( or rifle nade over hedges )
1 Feb 2021, 15:23 PM
#55
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

As unconstructive as it feels to vote for Option 5, 'scrap messing with the UI entirely' wasn't an option on the list. Messing with the UI should never be considered valid design space. It defeats the purpose of a UI.

Luvnest's camouflague idea sounds good, provided it's kept simple.

Personally though, I'd keep things simple and just replace the ability outright. Grab an underused ability from another commander that fits the theme, like Sturm Offizier or something.
1 Feb 2021, 23:13 PM
#56
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Tactical Movement isn't really a useful point of comparison just because of how weak it is. (also you forgot tactical movement is CP2 vs the CP0 of radio silence)

I'd actually say tac movement is balanced. For the cost of oorah twice your whole infantry army sprints, and machine guns too. The ability isn't flashy, but it's not bad at all-the commanders it's in on the other hand....

I haven't played the commander in ages, how much does the usf smoke/sprint combo from that ranger commander cost?

Really it does highlight how OP radio silence is (the tactical movement that is)
But funny enough, if the movement types were swapped, so that the Ostheer one was the sprint but not sprint allowing them to fire on the move (keeping in mind that grens are ass on the move, pios are ass at range and really you only need to worry about pgrens) and if radio silence had proper sprint both abilities would be much more in line with one another

The big ugly of okw having a fire on the move speed boost is they can have stgs on quite literally their entire infantry force... Stgs that are good on the move meaning it's disgusting with synergy. Ost would not present such a problem.
1 Feb 2021, 23:26 PM
#57
avatar of Hater

Posts: 493

Didn't read lol. Tactical map player problem.
2 Feb 2021, 17:36 PM
#58
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179


I'd actually say tac movement is balanced. For the cost of oorah twice your whole infantry army sprints, and machine guns too. The ability isn't flashy, but it's not bad at all-the commanders it's in on the other hand....

I haven't played the commander in ages, how much does the usf smoke/sprint combo from that ranger commander cost?

Really it does highlight how OP radio silence is (the tactical movement that is)
But funny enough, if the movement types were swapped, so that the Ostheer one was the sprint but not sprint allowing them to fire on the move (keeping in mind that grens are ass on the move, pios are ass at range and really you only need to worry about pgrens) and if radio silence had proper sprint both abilities would be much more in line with one another

The big ugly of okw having a fire on the move speed boost is they can have stgs on quite literally their entire infantry force... Stgs that are good on the move meaning it's disgusting with synergy. Ost would not present such a problem.



Oorah! - 15 munitions, 10s duration
Tactical Movement - 40 munitions, 20s duration
Cover to Cover - 60 munitions, 20s duration

Tactical Movement is a pretty weak ability in my mind. Mass sprinting just isn't really useful to most factions, but especially Ostheer. I usually only care about a single squad getting in range to throw the snare or beating a squad to a house. It doesn't really help chase down fleeing squads, and rapidly closing distance isn't beneficial to a long range focused faction.

Cover to Cover works because it provides smoke cover and the faction is based on closing and maneuvering. Oorah works because it only affects a single squad that benefits from snaring and flanking. Tactical Movement..doesn't really gel with the faction at all.
2 Feb 2021, 18:43 PM
#59
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Tactical Movement is a pretty weak ability in my mind. Mass sprinting just isn't really useful to most factions, but especially Ostheer. I usually only care about a single squad getting in range to throw the snare or beating a squad to a house. It doesn't really help chase down fleeing squads, and rapidly closing distance isn't beneficial to a long range focused faction.


I think you mostly see it in Lighting, cause Blitzkrieg is kinda underwhelming though it thematically it makes sense.
With that in mind, you play with G43 Grens/PG which are short/mid range focus units with excel with mobility.

Overall it's a niche ability on the weaker side, which is fine because on the useful commander it's in, there are stronger abilities to balance it out.
And it's not that Blitzkrieg is a bad commander (smoke, recon, CAS, sprint, Command PIV -this one needs a buff-) it's just that it has good abilities that are just present in better commanders.

As far as individual sprint goes, remember that you have that ability once you upgrade camouflage.
3 Feb 2021, 02:17 AM
#60
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279




Oorah! - 15 munitions, 10s duration
Tactical Movement - 40 munitions, 20s duration
Cover to Cover - 60 munitions, 20s duration

Tactical Movement is a pretty weak ability in my mind. Mass sprinting just isn't really useful to most factions, but especially Ostheer. I usually only care about a single squad getting in range to throw the snare or beating a squad to a house. It doesn't really help chase down fleeing squads, and rapidly closing distance isn't beneficial to a long range focused faction.

Cover to Cover works because it provides smoke cover and the faction is based on closing and maneuvering. Oorah works because it only affects a single squad that benefits from snaring and flanking. Tactical Movement..doesn't really gel with the faction at all.


hmm i guess i was thinking of the molitov cost instead of oorah.
at any rate, for 40 mu the ability isnt really bad., i dont use it offensivly though, i usually use it to recover from a route since ost doesnt have a forward retreat. not to close the distance, but to minimise your enemy advantage, or exploit a breakthrough in a team game. its niche, i wont deny that, but i dont think that for its cost it really aught to be more frankly... maybe a bit longer but in the end, its around the cost of a grenade. its more than anything a result of power creep, but if it was to be chanmged, as i said earlier, IT having the fire on the move sprint wouldnt be terrible because its ost. part of the reason the fire on the move for OKW is so strong is becasue its okw... on brits, ost or sov (assuming no shocks) the ability wouldnt be near as strong. USF it would be nastier than on okw...
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