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My perspective on the upcoming changes as a UKF main

23 Dec 2020, 10:47 AM
#21
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 10:31 AMElpern

Ive also played a lot of games on these notes(though I have not yet touched v4) and the timings feel more fair now when it comes to the AEC: ukf doesnt have that one optimal trick up its sleeve anymore but has to diversify. When it comes to the royal engineers there could be further compensation though I definitely think thats what necessary to bring ukf inline with other factions designs as the assymetrical design here brings nothing interesting to the table


What about the medical supplies ? Don't you think this is way too harsh on the tommies with the other nerfs they are receiving ? Also I am not sure what you mean by assymetrical when okw has such powerful units at tier 0. Can you even imagine royal engis vs sturms in the early game, it would be pathetic.
23 Dec 2020, 10:57 AM
#22
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 300

Very good post and well presented Kobal. Congrats!

I will add that AEC timing was nerfed too much now... but IS and Comet still need some nerfs.
23 Dec 2020, 11:00 AM
#23
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 71

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 10:47 AMKobal


What about the medical supplies ? Don't you think this is way too harsh on the tommies with the other nerfs they are receiving ? Also I am not sure what you mean by assymetrical when okw has such powerful units at tier 0. Can you even imagine royal engis vs sturms in the early game, it would be pathetic.

Im glad the healing is addressed, comparing it to okw healing(which thankfully is also getting addressed) when going puma the ukf healing options just knocks it out of the park. In your hypothetical scenario you would probably avoid the sturms just as you do in every other allied-okw matchup until you have sections/uc which are super powerful t0 units compared to kubel and volks
23 Dec 2020, 11:05 AM
#24
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:00 AMElpern

Im glad the healing is addressed, comparing it to okw healing(which thankfully is also getting addressed) when going puma the ukf healing options just knocks it out of the park. In your hypothetical scenario you would probably avoid the sturms just as you do in every other allied-okw matchup until you have sections/uc which are super powerful t0 units compared to kubel and volks



Except okw will now have reliable option to backtech for medics if needed. There is also the fact tommies are much more expensive to reinforce than volks, meaning the fact their healing is getting delayed this much is very painful considering they have a really hard time pushing into entrenched position. Luchs is also getting omega buffed vs garrisons and green cover so you can see the choice of going mech of battlegroup as an actual decision to make in the early game. Volks don't need healing as much as tommies do in the early game.
23 Dec 2020, 11:06 AM
#25
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 10:57 AMLeo251
Very good post and well presented Kobal. Congrats!

I will add that AEC timing was nerfed too much now... but IS and Comet still need some nerfs.


Thanks, I don't think IS still needs nerfs after what they just received lol. Also comet did get nerfed slightly but nerfing it more without making the cromwell have better aoe or pen would be too hard for ukf to reach a comfortable mid to late game army.
23 Dec 2020, 11:13 AM
#26
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 71

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:05 AMKobal



Except okw will now have reliable option to backtech for medics if needed. There is also the fact tommies are much more expensive to reinforce than volks, meaning the fact their healing is getting delayed this much is very painful considering they have a really hard time pushing into entrenched position. Luchs is also getting omega buffed vs garrisons and green cover so you can see the choice of going mech of battlegroup as an actual decision to make in the early game. Volks don't need healing as much as tommies do in the early game.

Its not as if volks are having a free pass on pushing entrenched ukf, only option being incendiary nades that cost muni that you also require for healing and to get stgs just to be able to not get outscaled by bolster sections. I do agree battlegroup is more reliable backtech now, but its stil heaps cheaper to tech a medic squad for ukf, which buggy nature thankfully is also getting addressed
23 Dec 2020, 11:20 AM
#27
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:13 AMElpern

Its not as if volks are having a free pass on pushing entrenched ukf, only option being incendiary nades that cost muni that you also require for healing and to get stgs just to be able to not get outscaled by bolster sections. I do agree battlegroup is more reliable backtech now, but its stil heaps cheaper to tech a medic squad for ukf, which buggy nature thankfully is also getting addressed


Well you have raketens to break trenches now and leigs if you need vs sandbags.
23 Dec 2020, 11:22 AM
#28
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154



Well you have raketens to break trenches now and leigs if you need vs sandbags. Also you are only talking about mech which is a huge mistake, going battlegroup allows you to get stgs much faster and throw more nades, reinforcing your field presence even further. You also get very cheap healing with it.
23 Dec 2020, 11:27 AM
#29
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 71

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:22 AMKobal


Well you have raketens to break trenches now and leigs if you need vs sandbags. Also you are only talking about mech which is a huge mistake, going battlegroup allows you to get stgs much faster and throw more nades, reinforcing your field presence even further. You also get very cheap healing with it.

.. and you have 6 pounder and mortar pit, reason its not being brought up by either of us until now is because we know you cant rely on either for the majority of engagements across the map. Battlegroup is not bad, but aec vs flakht is not a good matchup for the flak and skipping lightvehicle as okw will make you bleed a large amount vs uc/aec with only raketen to force them away for an occasional repair
23 Dec 2020, 11:33 AM
#30
avatar of mstcrstn

Posts: 42

Ukf still comes on top in 1v1 vs OKW. The problem is that if ukf is nerfed too hard it loses badly to wher.
23 Dec 2020, 11:34 AM
#31
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:27 AMElpern

.. and you have 6 pounder and mortar pit, reason its not being brought up by either of us until now is because we know you cant rely on either for the majority of engagements across the map. Battlegroup is not bad, but aec vs flakht is not a good matchup for the flak and skipping lightvehicle as okw will make you bleed a large amount vs uc/aec with only raketen to force them away for an occasional repair



You can always sit back and use leigs if you wish. Going straight for p4 as okw is also something you can do as okw vs ukf I find, ukf does not have a really good anti infantry light vehicle that can't be dealt with by raketen. Staying aggressive on the move with stgs and grenades can really push them back. And getting early obers can help really bleed them nicely.
23 Dec 2020, 11:36 AM
#32
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 154

Ukf still comes on top in 1v1 vs OKW. The problem is that if ukf is nerfed too hard it loses badly to wher.



It's probably still favoured yes but okw got a lot more tools to deal with them now, schreck pios for UC/aec , backtech for healing and ukf being toned down massively in their early game. And finally earlier obers allowing you to scale faster vs their sections.
23 Dec 2020, 11:49 AM
#33
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 71

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:36 AMKobal



It's probably still favoured yes but okw got a lot more tools to deal with them now, schreck pios for UC/aec , backtech for healing and ukf being toned down massively in their early game. And finally earlier obers allowing you to scale faster vs their sections.
I see what you mean and I agree with you here, but this is also why I think the healing and aec timing nerfs are fair. I can definitely see ukf struggling vs ostheer 5men/osttruppen if they remain meta, but hopefully that wont be the case. As for early obers i think thats just falsely advertised, you'll get to obers later in patch with schwerer costing 90Fu instead of 60, only unlocking the lmg as compensation which you'll usually have for your 1st engagement in the live game anyway if you go t4 -> ober -> panzer auth.
23 Dec 2020, 12:12 PM
#34
avatar of spaget man

Posts: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:27 AMElpern

.. and you have 6 pounder and mortar pit

Please, everyone here knows mortar pit in 1v1s is a big meme and it's barely better in 2v2s.
23 Dec 2020, 12:18 PM
#35
avatar of mstcrstn

Posts: 42

Agree. It was cancer when it could be built in base and cover a great portion of 1v1 maps. But now, Even with the changes i think it's too expensive for what it can do and how easily it can be countered in some situations (has no chance vs leig).
23 Dec 2020, 14:10 PM
#36
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 71


Please, everyone here knows mortar pit in 1v1s is a big meme and it's barely better in 2v2s.

Yet I see it twice as often as a Lieg. Gee I wonder which of the two is a meme
23 Dec 2020, 14:16 PM
#37
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 195


Please, everyone here knows mortar pit in 1v1s is a big meme and it's barely better in 2v2s.



Mortar Pits wrecked Axis in the last 2v2 tournament, especially in Eindhoven Country behind the middle VP, if I recall correctly.
23 Dec 2020, 15:38 PM
#38
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1594 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 09:30 AMElpern
Well presented Kobal, though I disagree with some of your thoughts here. The UC and AEC timing for instance makes sure that you dont have an AEC on top of the 222 that just came out to counter the UC. This makes it so that you either have to babysit the UC with engineers until AEC arrives, or go for an early 6 pounder meaning there is a decision to be made. In the live version you will always get that AEC before anything else appears to counter the UC, unless you go for any other sidetechs, which imo is flawed. Other than that, what would you think about swapping the starting section with a royal engineer? The royal engineers starting in T0 is a good step, but I think it isn't enough to change any buildorders since you're going to get your sections first no matter what. Maybe compensate for the loss of overall mp by giving ukf higher starting mp as compensation?


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 10:31 AMElpern

Ive also played a lot of games on these notes(though I have not yet touched v4) and the timings feel more fair now when it comes to the AEC: ukf doesnt have that one optimal trick up its sleeve anymore but has to diversify. When it comes to the royal engineers there could be further compensation though I definitely think thats what necessary to bring ukf inline with other factions designs as the assymetrical design here brings nothing interesting to the table


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:00 AMElpern

Im glad the healing is addressed, comparing it to okw healing(which thankfully is also getting addressed) when going puma the ukf healing options just knocks it out of the park. In your hypothetical scenario you would probably avoid the sturms just as you do in every other allied-okw matchup until you have sections/uc which are super powerful t0 units compared to kubel and volks


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2020, 11:49 AMElpern
I see what you mean and I agree with you here, but this is also why I think the healing and aec timing nerfs are fair. I can definitely see ukf struggling vs ostheer 5men/osttruppen if they remain meta, but hopefully that wont be the case. As for early obers i think thats just falsely advertised, you'll get to obers later in patch with schwerer costing 90Fu instead of 60, only unlocking the lmg as compensation which you'll usually have for your 1st engagement in the live game anyway if you go t4 -> ober -> panzer auth.


Well, the main thing to consider here is the AEC and healing both get affected by the Section capping bonus removal in a significant way as well. Capturing the map slower simply means you will gather less fuel and munitions in the early game. Especially with slower sandbag build time it will be harder to encroach on the map early on and hold it easily.

That in itself might be good to make Sections less powerful early on, but then the additional AEC and Medical Supply changes essentially mean AEC got a double timing nerf (or triple timing nerf if you go UC) and Medical Supplies got a double cost nerf.

Now I'd be fine with the new AEC timing if UKF got compensated better for it (like you said), but right now, forcing UKF to rush out an AT gun early on is too much an investment to ask of them, especially if they're facing a Sniper. Their AT gun doesn't double as artillery like the ZiS and their tech - if you want to stay competitive - is more manpower intensive compared to something like Ostheer going 222 with Pak40 (180mp for Platoon, 150mp for Bolster, still have to garner 380mp if you want to get AEC out). The AT gun is more of a mid game thing for UKF. It would be better if Brens and PIAT racks got split up between two seperate upgrades for like 50mp 10fu, so UKF would have a soft AT option with low manpower cost:


Besides giving easier AT access, this has some other benefits for UKF as well:
  • Players may decide to save some resources over Bolster and just get by with Brens until their first tank, so you'd see something other than Bolster rush every game.
  • Brens are literally only good on standard Sections, so if player decides to not play with Sections much (think Assault Sections) they wouldn't be forced into getting Bren rack bundled in an expensive package if they just want PIATs.

As for Medical Supplies, the second and third upgrade are too much delayed for UKF to be able to keep up in healing now imo, so they're urged to get a 180mp Medic squad. Now Assault Section starts can afford a Medic squad easily, because they don't have to worry about upgrading Bolster and can just upgrade double Thompson to deal with any opposing mainlines (so for them the manpower investment is in Medics, the munition investment is in Thompson. For Sections the manpower investment is Bolster and the munition investment is Medical Supplies). Standard Section builds will once again have trouble affording something like that early on.

It would be better to keep Medical Supplies 30 munitions and nerf them in some other way if they're too good on the field, for example:
- Make Medical Supplies unable to activate in neutral/enemy territory until Sections are vet 2 (read: can still activate in friendly territory and walk onto enemy territory).

That would be a change in-line with the defensive nature of Sections.

And that basically sums up what Kobal is saying: you want to avoid stacking additional 'required' manpower investments on top of Sections, when Sections already got the capping bonus removal (that being 180mp Medics to keep up with healing or a 320mp AT gun to not get bullied by rushed LVs).
23 Dec 2020, 16:04 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1


...

You are assuming that UKF cap slower in preview when they can actually cap faster by producing a Ro.E.
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