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Random OKW in team games – blood, guts and glory

Do full / 75% OKW teams without caches lead to unfair resource disadvantage in 3v3 or 4v4?
Option Distribution Votes
48%
7%
45%
Total votes: 42
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
4 Dec 2020, 10:53 AM
#1
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 169 | Subs: 1

As a flagrant Make Allies Great Again fanboy I find this issue hard to relate to but let’s discuss it anyway:

The lack of caches for OKW and the snowballing in 3v3 and 4v4.

Now that sentence should have driven away all the “3v3 and 4v4 can never be balanced” people so let’s continue :snfPeter:

Random team games are often a box of mysteries. Sometimes you get a ton of faction variety and good compositions. Other times you get a full random team of the same faction. Especially 100% homogenous team compositions usually have some glaring weaknesses to be exploited.

But there is a unique issue with teams consisting of 3 or 4 OKW players. They face the issues of having to rely fully on gaining a resource advantage through map control while being unable to invest their manpower to benefit the entire team's fuel and munitions income. Naturally in smaller modes of 1v1 and 2v2 this is a smaller issue since caches are a rarer sight.

However, in teamgames there are plenty of maps where combat easily stalls into a stalemate battle of attrition. There the effect of caches will have an insane impact during a span of 40-60 minutes. In these situations Allied teams can coordinate and each of the players builds some caches so the manpower cost doesn’t become overwhelming for a single player. As a result their army composition won’t suffer too much and they are better prepared to replace armor losses and able use off map clicks more liberally.

The smaller resource constraint will incentivize more aggressive playstyle in addition of being able to afford to support defensive manoeuvres and pushes with off maps more often. Meanwhile the pressure is on OKW to advance despite the resource disadvantage that will only keep getting bigger the longer the game carries on.

I know that caches we’re not part of the original design ™ of OKW but nearly all faction flavour like resource conversion and insane vet 5 that mitigated it has now been removed or toned down.

Now that more massive balance dumps (Trump reference, no hate :romeoHype: ) have been confirmed it would be interesting to discuss this matter with facts and logic.

Right now the fact of the matter is that the random chance of getting full / almost full OKW teams in random automatch can easily lead to massive resource disparity among Allies and Axis that has little to do with map control.

The question is: Should something be done about it and/or what?

(I hope that your arguments are based on facts and logic while winning bigly without personal attacks. I know people here know words, some have the best words, but I’m hoping the arguments consist of more than 5 words in a sentence. :romeoHairDay: )
4 Dec 2020, 11:10 AM
#2
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2385 | Subs: 2

This thread would probably do a lot better if you did not add the poll.
4 Dec 2020, 11:11 AM
#3
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3458 | Subs: 2

I agree, remove caches from coh2.
4 Dec 2020, 11:11 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8

Just spam 223s.
4 Dec 2020, 11:14 AM
#5
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

I don't want OKW to get caches. It would be a shame if the last few remaining faction flavours get deleted from the game.
4 Dec 2020, 11:19 AM
#6
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 169 | Subs: 1

This thread would probably do a lot better if you did not add the poll.


The poll is there so I can say its rigged if I don’t like the result :snfPeter:

+ to filter out the people who weren’t gonna make an actual argument anyway
4 Dec 2020, 11:20 AM
#7
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 169 | Subs: 1

Just spam 223s.


I am sure that deep down you know the fundamental differences of how lockdowns and caches differ from each other and why that argument does not hold water in this context due to 223s only benefitting one player :romeoHype:

(+ you clearly did not read the post to the end because I asked very nicely to people use more than 5-word sentences to make their case)
4 Dec 2020, 11:28 AM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8

Just spam 223s AND salvage wrecks.
4 Dec 2020, 11:31 AM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1

Yes all OKW have a disadvantage in large modes if the games has a long duration.

I would argue that most all one "faction" teams have a disadvantage (although probably smaller ones).

On the Other hand the "solution" will probably create more problems than it would solve.

On the matter 221/223 the unit is simply badly designed as support unit . It has comparatively high cost/lower return and a Pop.

I would rather have it replaced by Opel truck that "siphon" (the ability exist in the game already) resources from enemy sector and the 221/223 redesigned.
4 Dec 2020, 11:49 AM
#10
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2385 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2020, 11:31 AMVipper
Yes all OKW have a disadvantage in large modes if the games has a long duration.

I would argue that most all one "faction" teams have a disadvantage (although probably smaller ones).

On the Other hand the "solution" will probably create more problems than it would solve.

On the matter 221/223 the unit is simply badly designed as support unit . It has comparatively high cost/lower return and a Pop.

I would rather have it replaced by Opel truck that "siphon" (the ability exist in the game already) resources from enemy sector and the 221/223 redesigned.

But why not just add caches to OKW instead of complicated doctrinal reworks?
4 Dec 2020, 11:55 AM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1


But why not just add caches to OKW instead of complicated doctrinal reworks?

Because okw where designed to be played with lower fuel income and the problem exist mostly under specific situation (all okw teams).

If they get cashes, KT would proably have to be removed from stock.
4 Dec 2020, 11:59 AM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8

Then don't stack a faction that doesn't stack well in team games.
Don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Disadvantages of a faction are not supposed to magically disappear because of game mode, at best other faction is capable of partially covering them.
4 Dec 2020, 12:09 PM
#13
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493

Do full / 75% Ostheer teams without Forward Retreat Points lead to unfair infantry presence disadvantage in 3v3 or 4v4?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
4 Dec 2020, 12:30 PM
#14
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2385 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2020, 11:55 AMVipper

Because okw where designed to be played with lower fuel income and the problem exist mostly under specific situation (all okw teams).

If they get cashes, KT would proably have to be removed from stock.

That design is long gone and while I am not a friend of caches and their current design, it would add consistency though.

Then don't stack a faction that doesn't stack well in team games.
Don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Disadvantages of a faction are not supposed to magically disappear because of game mode, at best other faction is capable of partially covering them.


Randoms can't choose who they play with, and 3v3+ is what they mostly play. And caches in larger modes are dirt cheap for what they bring. Playing with mostly OKW because of pure luck puts you at a disadvantage by default.
4 Dec 2020, 12:38 PM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8


Randoms can't choose who they play with, and 3v3+ is what they mostly play. And caches in larger modes are dirt cheap for what they bring. Playing with mostly OKW because of pure luck puts you at a disadvantage by default.

If you play random.... don't complain you have it random.
Its literally in the name and can not be any clearer.
RANDOM.

You expose yourself to pure luck the moment you press "search" in a team game without partner(s).
You can't nor you should attempt to fix that.
4 Dec 2020, 12:47 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1


That design is long gone and while I am not a friend of caches and their current design, it would add consistency though.

What can I say, I like flavor.

If there is a need for extra fuel for OKW I would still rather make UHU doctrinal (and improve it) and replace it with Opel truck that provided fuel either from enemy or friendly sectors. It would be more fitting thematically and the fuel income could fine tuned to fit the faction.
4 Dec 2020, 13:08 PM
#17
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2385 | Subs: 2


If you play random.... don't complain you have it random.
Its literally in the name and can not be any clearer.
RANDOM.

You expose yourself to pure luck the moment you press "search" in a team game without partner(s).
You can't nor you should attempt to fix that.


If your definition of random games is that it is fully intended to lose by coin flip, then alright.

This game has a small player base, so rank mismatches are unavoidable. But you can and definitely should attempt to fix other factors that you you have control over. Everything else is just a lazy excuse.
4 Dec 2020, 13:14 PM
#18
avatar of lemmiwinks

Posts: 61

I agree with Hannibal. The fairest thing to do would be to add caches for OKW. Axis already have a disadvantage mathematically, because they only have 2 factions to choose. So it happens way more often to have full OKW teams, than russians etc. OKW has no sniper, nor an early mg, and the times that OKW is meant to win the late game are over imo, all their HQs get destroyed in the late game by the amount of (mobile) arty and off-map-strikes the allies can choose from, even if build in base. While I have to admit that I am kind of an axis fanboy, I still try to be neutral. And katitof, you sound like the total opposite, just without being neutral.
4 Dec 2020, 13:16 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8



If your definition of random games is that it is fully intended to lose by coin flip, then alright.

It actually is, because... well... its random.
You might get faction X, Y or Z, you might get someone with meme commanders or a meta try hard.
You might get HelpingHans, you might get thekingsown.
It.
Is.
All.
Random.

You should NEVER join into a random team game with an attitude of "I will win", because you have, at the very best, control over 50% of your side.

Yes, random games can be fun, no, random games aren't, weren't and won't be competitive if you are willing to put it down to a coin flip for literally a random person/faction/commanders you might get and the larger the game mode, the more random wheels to spin.

This game has a small player base, so rank mismatches are unavoidable. But you can and definitely should attempt to fix other factors that you you have control over. Everything else is just a lazy excuse.

You can fix economical disadvantage of OKW in team games by NOT attempting to build a sim city yourself and playing long game.

Not all factions benefit from the exact same playstyle.

Otherwise you might just give soviets early game weapon upgrades, USF rocket arty, Ost light tank etc.
If you don't want to be exposed to a high game of chance of having perfect synergy or having none of it, don't play random teams.

I have no idea how to be even more clear then that.
4 Dec 2020, 13:47 PM
#20
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2385 | Subs: 2


It actually is, because... well... its random.
You might get faction X, Y or Z, you might get someone with meme commanders or a meta try hard.
You might get HelpingHans, you might get thekingsown.
It.
Is.
All.
Random.

You should NEVER join into a random team game with an attitude of "I will win", because you have, at the very best, control over 50% of your side.

Yes, random games can be fun, no, random games aren't, weren't and won't be competitive if you are willing to put it down to a coin flip for literally a random person/faction/commanders you might get and the larger the game mode, the more random wheels to spin.

And at which point was the "search game" button supposed to become a literal coin flip simulator? Usually there are supposed to be 30-50 min of game in between, this is why the whole match making exists, even if it often derps out heavily.
No, playing without a team was never meant to get you an absolutely random outcome. It is supposed to give you equally skilled other players and a fair game.

It.
is.
NOT.
all.
random.


You can fix economical disadvantage of OKW in team games by NOT attempting to build a sim city yourself and playing long game.

Fully with you on this one. Does not fix OKWs resource disadvantage though. And additionally since you seem to be quite keen on this: No, we are not talking about hardcore competitiveness on the level of tournaments and whatnot. We're talking about setting up a fair game for everyone, or at least as fair as possible within what we currently can do with this game. There is no good reason that in team games the whole cache building (read: additional income) is instantly burdened on the Ostheer player(s).

It's not about the exact in-game model of caches, but about giving OKW some form of generating additional income for the team.

Not all factions benefit from the exact same playstyle.

What all factions do benefit from though is additional resources.


Otherwise you might just give soviets early game weapon upgrades, USF rocket arty, Ost light tank etc.
If you don't want to be exposed to a high game of chance of having perfect synergy or having none of it, don't play random teams.

I have no idea how to be even more clear then that.

Apples and oranges, mate.



Final question though otherwise the upcoming discussion is quite pointless:
Do you see a difference between having bad luck on getting thrown together players potentially worse than you vs being at a general disadvantage by default because even if you get equally skilled players you just can't generate the amount of resources that the other team can?

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