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T-34 rework

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2 Dec 2020, 12:53 PM
#161
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 602

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 12:34 PMDharx


This is not true if both players play equally well, and it showed even during the recent WC. SOV has better manpower economy, but not late game tools to really capitalize on that. Your statement would be true if SOV could for example use this to eventually build an equivalent to Brummy or Panther and really start bullying the opponent in some department. If the game drags for long enough without any decisive engagements, Axis can just stall the game with AT guns and wait for proper late game tech, which is something SOV has trouble answering again.


I am talking 1v1 perspective where sov late game is extremely strong.
2 Dec 2020, 12:59 PM
#162
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



I am talking 1v1 perspective where sov late game is extremely strong.



its strong but not because of the T-34... the zis 3 SU-85 vet 3 7 man conscripts and katyusha all contribute to soviet lategame performance alot more than the T-34-76 does... making the T-34 any better wont make the soviet lategame any stronger... especially since the katyusha just received a massive nerf with the -20% reload at vet 2... not to mention the zis 3 and SU-85 nerf...


besides weve seen soviet lategame potential with a proper high quality medium like a T-34-85... and it isnt exactly OP... hence buffing the T-34 to at least be as cost efficient as a P4 should be healthy to the faction overall...
2 Dec 2020, 13:34 PM
#163
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83



I am talking 1v1 perspective where sov late game is extremely strong.


I'm also talking 1v1, 2v2 at most.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 12:59 PMgbem



its strong but not because of the T-34... the zis 3 SU-85 vet 3 7 man conscripts and katyusha all contribute to soviet lategame performance alot more than the T-34-76 does... making the T-34 any better wont make the soviet lategame any stronger... especially since the katyusha just received a massive nerf with the -20% reload at vet 2... not to mention the zis 3 and SU-85 nerf...


besides weve seen soviet lategame potential with a proper high quality medium like a T-34-85... and it isnt exactly OP...


Mostly this. I wouldn't call the nerf to Katy "massive", though it's definitely more noticeable than with other faction arty in 1v1, since SOV often relies on Katy killing power in late game more than others. But yes, the scope of SOV nerfs is quite insane. It's not massive nerfs except for T70, but the overall impact will be great due to the sheer number of nerfs. Bounce/hit RNG will become even more frustrating because of the Panther/SU changes, mid-game power spike is reduced, clow car strats is even riskier because of the armour change (I wonder why would anyone waste fuel and build T1 because of something that really struggles against small arms). ZIS arty got hit hard... And those are just the nerfs that affect 1v1 specifically, not mentioning others that are relevant to team games.

This debate and thread wouldn't even exists if the balance team offered something in return in the light of so many nerfs in the first place.
2 Dec 2020, 13:37 PM
#164
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

id consider the katy nerf the ram nerf and the T-70 nerfs as massive... the katy + ram basically prop up soviet 4v4 potential while the T-70 basically props up the soviet faction outside of a 3v3... well the katy is a huge prop to soviet potential in all game modes....
2 Dec 2020, 20:58 PM
#165
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

You're describing the KV-1 here.


I was actually just thinking T-34-85 without the 85mm gun, which is a far better point of comparison. The KV-1 has damage reduction that gives it a much higher effective HP than 800, taking 7 shots instead of 5.
3 Dec 2020, 14:05 PM
#166
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 570

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 11:07 AMGiaA
This unit is anything but underpowered. The problem is that the importance of 1v1 medium vs medium battles gets way overestimated a lot of the time. Mediums functioning as bruiser tanks fighting each other is quite rare because the vast majority of the time they are backed by double at guns.

You're suggesting that Sovs should go T2 if they want to use T34. That seems restrictive. Is it the design? Let's look.

T1: no AT gun, get T70, save, ramp up to T4, get Su85
T2: get AT gun, get T34, try to win with critical mass of T34, else get SU85

Sovs have that problem where if they go T1 and need AT they're forced to use penal PTRS, which is currently criticised as ineffective.

So I disagree with your assessment, and say that tanks need to be balanced FIRST against their opposite tank in the same tier, and then by other factors such as support and AT tech.

In those two areas the T34 is exceptionally good.

As described above, it's only good if you've chosen that path. Sovs get screwed hard by incorrect tech choices; that also might be part of the problem.
It was suggested in another thread to give cons PTRS, this might help.

with regards the ram changes

Ram needs to do something good if you're sac'ing a unit to use it. Instead of adjusting ram too much, the mod team should look at overall penetration rates in the faction as a whole, and bring it up to the next level by nerfing outstanding pen rates (su85) and buffing other incidental pen rates (mortars, maxim, 120mm, M3, etc). This would bring the average pen rate up holistically.
3 Dec 2020, 14:20 PM
#167
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


You're suggesting that Sovs should go T2 if they want to use T34. That seems restrictive. Is it the design? Let's look.


the even bigger issue here is that it isnt the T-34 that makes the soviet lategame strong... id prefer the P4/sherman/T-34-85 to the T-34-76 in any lategame situation for the same reason why spamming AT guns and centaurs/ostwind isnt meta...

instead what makes soviet lategame strong is the ZIS3 the SU-85 katy and vet 3 7 man cons... all these things matter alot more than the T-34... which is honestly the weakest link in the soviet lategame...

also soviet lategame is strong but i doubt that its OP... id say OST lategame with VSL + DR reduction grens + brumm + P4 + panther + pak 40 + pwerf (which just ot buffed) is just as strong (or even stronger) than SOV lategame...
3 Dec 2020, 16:46 PM
#168
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392


They could make the stub dick p4 as a "light" medium. Maybe in t2 after BP2 is teched kinda thing. Fine tuning needed


+1
5 Dec 2020, 15:53 PM
#169
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Nov 2020, 06:01 AMgbem


they are guaranteed to lose frontally which was the original argument.. but nice work taking an argument out of context



They are not guaranteed to lose frontally vs P4s. I included the link to the dictionary for you.
5 Dec 2020, 16:08 PM
#170
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979




They are not guaranteed to lose frontally vs P4s. I included the link to the dictionary for you.


The tests say otherwise but ok...
5 Dec 2020, 16:25 PM
#171
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2020, 16:08 PMgbem


The tests say otherwise but ok...

Why don't you start a game with FalixTHM and you can operate the T-34/76 he can operate the PzIV and see what happens after a sufficient number of fights.
5 Dec 2020, 17:06 PM
#172
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279




They are not guaranteed to lose frontally vs P4s. I included the link to the dictionary for you.
RNG is RNG but nobody is going to put money on the t34 outslugging a p4, especially one with skirts

that said i dont think the t34 is BAD but its certainly going to be lacking once the removal of ram goes through especially since ram fills a needed role in the soviet roster as going nose to nose in a slugging match vs an elephant or JT with the su85 or su76 is not exactly viable.

something within the faction is going to have to change to give some sort of chance against these AT wunderwaffe

EDIT
what about sopmething completely out there?
lower range of the t34- its not going to win any ranged fights anyways (justify this with horrible soviet optics?)
lower cost- i mean... its undeniably less of a standard tank after a range nerf...
increase pen a fair amount in the close range and a bit in the mid range

this allows you to ACTUALLY have a shit tank that you can actually afford to mass AND have that volume be a threat. right now for a small itty bitty amount of fuel difference the p4 is better up close than the t34 is and better everywhere else too.

soviet will still have 2 60 range TDs for long range combat and if they support with t34s theres more than a 120 pen max unit deterring a flank.
5 Dec 2020, 17:12 PM
#173
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

I mean the current T-34 is balanced as ram essentially functions as an equalizer for an otherwise subpar tank... tests have confirmed that it basically doesnt compare to a p4 even when spammed soo overall its a pretty crap unit outside of the ram gimmick


If ram is removed the base t34 needs a buff in compensation
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