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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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28 Nov 2020, 22:59 PM
#101
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1


Battlegroup Headquarters
The Battlegroup Headquarters is receiving a change to make healing more accessible. Medics will now be available from the start while Forward Reinforcement must be upgraded.
- Fuel cost from 25 to 30
- The Sd.Kfz.251/17 Flak HT build time will be adjusted for timing accordingly, see below
- Medics automatically available
- No longer reinforces when deployed out of the base sector, unless upgraded
- 'Forward Reinforce' upgrade added. 100 manpower and 10 fuel. 15 Second upgrade time.


I would have rather make it cost 10 (15 in total) fuel to build but completly locked (no ability to build units, no reinforcements) and without it even counting as a track deployed, but providing medics.

And relocate cost difference to an upgrade which will count as a proper track deployment.

In this case it can just act as a more expensive healing bunker, which you can easily get if you need one. Which will be more in line with the expenses USF take for getting ambulance.

The only thing which needs ajusment is the timing of flakHT.
29 Nov 2020, 08:15 AM
#102
avatar of Kothre

Posts: 419

Schwerer Panzer Headquarters
The following changes will allow OKW doctrinal vehicles to arrive sooner, giving the player more options over the standard OKW Panzer IV which they previously competed with. Earlier, upgraded Obersoldaten should also make more of an impact in the infantry battles in the mid-game.
- Fuel cost from 60 to 90
- Panzer Authorization fuel cost from 60 to 30


Ummm...? Is this a typo? You want to allow obers and doctrinal vehicles to arrive sooner, then you increase the cost of the Schwerer HQ so that it comes out later? Surely I'm misunderstanding something here, because the description of what you are trying to achieve versus what you are actually doing are polar opposites.

Furthermore, narrowing the gap between building the Schwerer and getting panzer authorization makes skipping obers and going straight into the building upgrade more attractive.
29 Nov 2020, 08:32 AM
#103
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 08:15 AMKothre
Ummm...? Is this a typo? You want to allow obers and doctrinal vehicles to arrive sooner, then you increase the cost of the Schwerer HQ so that it comes out later? Surely I'm misunderstanding something here, because the description of what you are trying to achieve versus what you are actually doing are polar opposites.


It's not a typo, these changes need to be read in conjunction with the changes below it. Ober upgrades and Hetzer/Ostwind now no longer require the PA upgrade, allowing them to come 30 fuel faster compared to live (90 vs 120).
29 Nov 2020, 09:49 AM
#104
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

Is there any possibility at all for making OKW tech linear again? Because this change is intended to give OKW access to indirect fire and healing easier, even if they go mechanized.

Right now, the choice between Battlegroup and mechanized is a strange trade off. Mechanized gives good light vehicles while creating a lack of healing that bleeds MP really badly, while Battlegroup has a weak light vehicle but provides healing to prevent you from bleeding dry of MP, and can make it hard to get enough repairs in the late game.

If the gimmic of choosing between a bad light vehicle but not bleeding manpower and getting good light vehicles but bleeding manpower is a feature that the balance team thinks should stay in the game, ignore suggested changes.

However, if you think this is bad choice to provide to a player, I think this would be a good way to alleviate it:

Tech rework idea:


This would:
Always give OKW access to indirect fire and rocket artillery
Allow easier access to early game healing/late game repairs
Give OKW faster access to MGs and snares (First truck comes earlier)
Flack HT is buffed indirectly as it can be combo’d with the Puma
Obers arrive earlier, helping to offset volksgrenadiers poorer late game performance. Keep in mind that the MG formation changes now make it harder for Obers to death loop MGs, so they will be less powerful

These changes would theoretically fix many of the current issues OKW suffers. However they may be too radical to implement, have unforeseen consequences, or there may be a better solution.
29 Nov 2020, 10:36 AM
#105
avatar of Kothre

Posts: 419



It's not a typo, these changes need to be read in conjunction with the changes below it. Ober upgrades and Hetzer/Ostwind now no longer require the PA upgrade, allowing them to come 30 fuel faster compared to live (90 vs 120).

Ah ha, thanks. I figured I must have been missing something obvious. Still, though...that's 30 fuel delay to get obers out at all, sans MG-34. Not an straight up buff regarding their unit timing.
29 Nov 2020, 15:01 PM
#106
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143

After playing some matches i honestly think Ostwind timing is better than before. I think its fine the way it is implemented in the preview patch.

Concerning Obers.
I never really started building the truck before having atleast 90 fuel to shorten the time to get PA. That means i think even Obers benefit from the change.


Didnt go for hetzer yet. I like the tank, but unlike Ostwind, it cant assault lighter vehicles which means further delaying any chance of damaging those effectively
29 Nov 2020, 15:08 PM
#107
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

After playing some matches i honestly think Ostwind timing is better than before. I think its fine the way it is implemented in the preview patch.

Concerning Obers.
I never really started building the truck before having atleast 90 fuel to shorten the time to get PA. That means i think even Obers benefit from the change.

+1
I think youre right about the Ostwind, I had the same impressions in my test games. Hetzer timing could be a little be trickier.
29 Nov 2020, 16:13 PM
#108
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 10:36 AMKothre
Ah ha, thanks. I figured I must have been missing something obvious. Still, though...that's 30 fuel delay to get obers out at all, sans MG-34. Not an straight up buff regarding their unit timing.


Well yes and no, the current live implementation has shown that most people do not feel that Obers without weapon upgrades are worth it. So getting access to fully upgraded Obers 30 fuel faster now would essentially be a timing buff.
29 Nov 2020, 18:58 PM
#109
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449




Very interesting idea. Where would weapon upgrades be unlocked? Battlegroup side tech? I actually really like this tree, except I think Puma should fall under T2 but not require either side tech. The trucks should be made more expensive and the side techs cheaper or removed altogether.
1 Dec 2020, 08:37 AM
#110
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

I'm concerned that the BGHQ changes will negatively affect OKW teamgame performance, both delaying access to teamweapons (mg and leig) and access to frontline reinforcement (which is more critical on large maps than healing).

I put forward my suggestion again to replace sturmpioneer stun grenade with vet0 smoke grenade (starts out expensive, vet bonus reduces price) to grant okw an early tool against mgs. The only other faction without early smoke is UKF, but at least they have the universal carrier and their own MG right off the bat.
2 Dec 2020, 12:10 PM
#111
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

Makes comment about team game balance, no one bats an eye.
Somebody makes comment about a small 1v1 impact, everybody loses their minds.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2 Dec 2020, 12:51 PM
#112
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 881

Makes comment about team game balance, no one bats an eye.
Somebody makes comment about a small 1v1 impact, everybody loses their minds.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Almost as if 1v1 mains are ruining it for everyone! :rolleyes:

5 FU delay could leave OKW in that vulnerability window vs MGs for longer I suppose, though they'd also save MP from having subsidised medics....I wonder how the test ppl feel about this change?

Not a fan of the smoke grenade idea but others might feel differently. If a SP is that close to an MG then they're already in serious serious trouble imho. UKF also get a nondoc arty spotter upgrade for their IS and can force MG redeploys/Garrison destruction.

2 Dec 2020, 14:52 PM
#113
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4115 | Subs: 3



Well yes and no, the current live implementation has shown that most people do not feel that Obers without weapon upgrades are worth it. So getting access to fully upgraded Obers 30 fuel faster now would essentially be a timing buff.


I find that at least in live and in teamgames, aside from sometimes not being on the ball getting it the second I have 60 fuel + truck, is that they take a long time to build. Typically I can only get 1 if I really want them before I can buy PA. PA is worth stopping the construction of obers as well so the flak truck can defend itself.
2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PM
#114
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



Bad change imo. I understand the intention but this makes MedTruck way too convenient especially in conjunction with the earlier Ober, Hetzer and Ostwind timing. It also takes away decision making which is generally a bad thing imo. I feel like the obvious solution would be some kind of tech split (I'm too lazy to come up with the details atm).

The point is to make healing (and possibly ISG) more accessible. This doesn't require the removal of the additional medic cost if you just introduce a sidetech for the Flak ht. This could also be a way to allow OKW to get earlier fausts and MGs which would extend their flexibility. This change here doesn't really change much about the frequent critiques regarding OKW.



Several Problems with this:

A. Reducing player decision making. Stumpio will end up being upgraded with both the vast majority of the time.

B. This doesn't encourage double sturmpio builds. If you want to encourage double Sturm reduce their price slightly in addition to the pop decrease and make Schreck and Sweeper mutually exclusive. This way opening involving 2 Sturmpios might actually become somewhat common.

C. The Schreck change will make the Flak HT overpowered. Flak HT has one of the strongest shock values in the game instantly forcing retreats even against squads in green cover. An ATGun is a must against it to keep it away but it barely threatens to kill it due to its cheap smoke ability. The big disadvantage of the Flak HT so far was its vulnerability to light vehicles. Covering it with fausts and Rak is very challenging in the live version. However now that both the T70 (reload nerf) and the AEC (timing nerf) have lost potency against the FlakHT it will be even stronger. Add to that the additional coverage by the schreck (1 Schreck makes a HUGE difference vs LVs when they are diving early mid game) and you end up with a broken unit.



I love the Schwerer change with regards to the new Ober timing. However I think Ostwind and Hetzer rushes are too quick atm. They are also very cheap manpower wise due to the low Schwerer cost. I think the Hetzer should just go back to being locked behind the Panzer Authorization because of its potency against armies that rely on Infantry base AT. The Ostwind issue could probably be resolved by reverting the battlegroup change (see above) and possibly increasing its build time.
2 Dec 2020, 15:59 PM
#115
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1601 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA
Bad change imo. I understand the intention but this makes MedTruck way too convenient especially in conjunction with the earlier Ober, Hetzer and Ostwind timing. It also takes away decision making which is generally a bad thing imo. I feel like the obvious solution would be some kind of tech split (I'm too lazy to come up with the details atm).

The point is to make healing (and possibly ISG) more accessible. This doesn't require the removal of the additional medic cost if you just introduce a sidetech for the Flak ht. This could also be a way to allow OKW to get earlier fausts and MGs which would extend their flexibility. This change here doesn't really change much about the frequent critiques regarding OKW.


First part: agreed.

Second part: making healing more accessible should be the main goal. MG34 could also work to increase early game variety. Earlier LeiG maybe if it's not too broken in bigger gamemodes. Main reason a Mechanized player would want to backtech to a LeiG in 1v1 is to counter FHQ, but they could also just chuck some flamenades into a building now. Would add some more worth to backteching to it though.

Fausts might be a bit too much.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA

Several Problems with this:

A. Reducing player decision making. Stumpio will end up being upgraded with both the vast majority of the time.

B. This doesn't encourage double sturmpio builds. If you want to encourage double Sturm reduce their price slightly in addition to the pop increase and make Schreck and Sweeper mutually exclusive. This way opening involving 2 Sturmpios might actually become somewhat common.

C. The Schreck change will make the Flak HT overpowered. Flak HT has one of the strongest shock values in the game instantly forcing retreats even against squads in green cover. An ATGun is a must against it to keep it away but it barely threatens to kill it due to its cheap smoke ability. The big disadvantage of the Flak HT so far was its vulnerability to light vehicles. Covering it with fausts and Rak is very challenging in the live version. However now that both the T70 (reload nerf) and the AEC (timing nerf) have lost potency against the FlakHT it will be even stronger. Add to that the additional coverage by the schreck (1 Schreck makes a HUGE difference vs LVs when they are diving early mid game) and you end up with a broken unit.


I thought the same first, but if non-mutually exclusive Schreck is the only big buff for Battlegroup-first strats it can actually work very nicely. OKW does need a midgame buff, which makes easier access to AT for Battlegroup and easier access to healing for Mechanized obvious directions. Anything more would be over the top.

For Mechanized it would be very hard to fit it in on top of the med crates and weapon upgrades.

I'd say, wait this change out and see how it goes.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA

I love the Schwerer change with regards to the new Ober timing. However I think Ostwind and Hetzer rushes are too quick atm. They are also very cheap manpower wise due to the low Schwerer cost. I think the Hetzer should just go back to being locked behind the Panzer Authorization because of its potency against armies that rely on Infantry base AT. The Ostwind issue could probably be resolved by reverting the battlegroup change (see above) and possibly increasing its build time.


I think the earlier Ostwind/Flamehetzer could work, but it's incompatible with the current Medic swap for Battlegroup.

If Battlegroup had the same cost as in live, then it could be judged more fairly if any further adjustments have to be made, like making the base Schwerer a bit more expensive or moving some Flamehetzer performance behind vet.
2 Dec 2020, 16:14 PM
#116
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA
Several Problems with this:

A. Reducing player decision making. Stumpio will end up being upgraded with both the vast majority of the time.

I'd argue it's the opposite. The Schreck is a total non-choice right now. By making it more viable, players will actually have more strategic decisions in the mid game because getting a Schreck would mean getting 1 less STG44 or G43 upgrade for a mainline.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA
B. This doesn't encourage double sturmpio builds. If you want to encourage double Sturm reduce their price slightly in addition to the pop increase and make Schreck and Sweeper mutually exclusive. This way opening involving 2 Sturmpios might actually become somewhat common.

Not really the goal of these changes.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA
C. The Schreck change will make the Flak HT overpowered.

Possibly, of so then play tests should hopefully show this. 1 Schreck is only enough to keep a light at bay and not kill it. LVs should still be able to keep the 251/17 in check while making it harder to dive it and get away with killing it. Which would hopefully make BG a more viable choice over Mechanized.
2 Dec 2020, 16:52 PM
#117
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2


I'd argue it's the opposite. The Schreck is a total non-choice right now. By making it more viable, players will actually have more strategic decisions in the mid game because getting a Schreck would mean getting 1 less STG44 or G43 upgrade for a mainline.


One is a balance issue and the other is a design issue. It could become an actual choice if double sturmpio was viable. I get your point tho.

Not really the goal of these changes.


Fair enough but that's really unfortunate. Viability of double Sturmpio would be a very simple way of making the OKW early game less one dimensional. (with the added side effect that it would allow for mutual exclusivity of schreck and sweeper)

which would hopefully make BG a more viable choice over Mechanized.


MedTruck is already viable (within the boundaries of the limited viability of OKW as a whole).

Possibly, of so then play tests should hopefully show this. 1 Schreck is only enough to keep a light at bay and not kill it. LVs should still be able to keep the 251/17 in check while making it harder to dive it and get away with killing it.


Early to mid game infantry never kills LVs unless one side fucks up massively. The point is always to keep them at bay. 1 Schreck makes a MASSIVE difference. 1 Schreck shot means that you only need two Raketen shots to kill a 400 hp vehicle like the AEC. It also means that you cant circle strafe the Raketen. (Right now even when fausted you can take out one Rak once youre close) Effectively it has a similar effect as double Rak without requiring the additional unit.
2 Dec 2020, 17:02 PM
#119
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13090 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA


Bad change imo...It also takes away decision making which is generally a bad thing imo...

Healing might be a "bad change", but it seem "inevitable" to me after the Soviet and USF tech revamp changes.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA

...
C. The Schreck change will make the Flak HT overpowered. ..

This this more of problem with AAHT (same applies to USF). Since these unit come explosive weapon the combine both supperior and damage to supperion units forcing retreat.

This could be fixed with 2 different fire modes, one suppress but does little damage the other does damage but does not suppress (in the case of USF AAHT it could fire the hmg or the cannon)

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2020, 15:39 PMGiaA

...However I think Ostwind and Hetzer rushes are too quick atm...

My suggestion would to make these unit call-in (or built form base) with CP so that they can not be rushed but that are available even if T4 is destroyed.

In the case of the hezter I would also suggest moving DOT an ability as see here for the UC

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106380/initial-vehicle-adjustment-ideas/page/1#post_id832718
(moded by Aegion)
2 Dec 2020, 18:53 PM
#120
avatar of PerfektSim7

Posts: 2

I have a few small additional balance suggestions for OKW:

Fallschirmjäger: It might be better balanced to increase First Strike Bonus to 30% or maybe higher, but lower general accuracy (or DPS) since i believe that this elite infantry should be used for counter attack moves instead of using it like a mainline infantry.

Additionally they could get similiar RA like Obersoldaten at higher veterancey to let them be an interesting unit after the recent small Obersoldaten buff.

Jagdpanzer IV should/could have a bit lower manpower and fuel requirments. 350/130 for example.

MG 34 should be able to reach higher Veterancy Levels faster to compensate its weaker performance compared to the MG 42. Maybe -10% Veterancy Requirments.

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