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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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27 Nov 2020, 18:39 PM
#61
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



Ehh considering how many complaints panzergrens are getting, I don't think that's a good idea...
The T4 placement is fine without overpowering stuff like cons (ober vs vet 0 con :rofl:), but the placement timing I've voiced against many a time (in the live version).


you might be right, but what if the obers bundle grenade was replaced with a normal grenade Like what MP40 Volks or Pfus get? That should tone down a bit by making less capable against multiple conscript squads
27 Nov 2020, 18:41 PM
#62
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1



Dont they ingnore cover with stg,s? Full or nearly full dps despite cover is quite good. And low model cqc squads tend to have excelent nades to win engagements. Bundle nade on stg obers pgrens and jeagers commando's are good examples of this.

No they do not ignore cover they simply lower penalties in the ST44 for firing into cover and their DPS vs units in cover at long range is not actually superior to that of the LMG.

This is also irrelevant the suggestion is to reduce DPS and and increase entities.

Other suggestions:
Swap booby trap with interrogation

Redesign Blendkop grenade as soft snare vs vehicles as it was in real life.
27 Nov 2020, 19:09 PM
#63
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 867

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 18:39 PMKT610


you might be right, but what if the obers bundle grenade was replaced with a normal grenade Like what MP40 Volks or Pfus get? That should tone down a bit by making less capable against multiple conscript squads


Ehhh the problem is not a (dodgeable) gift basket but the fact that 0.7 model size infantry with 30.8-66.7% more dps than grens (0-35 range) is suicide to charge into with stock cons/mainlines. Grens are 0.91 model size for reference. Maybe riflemen can get away with it, but expect to lose 2-3 models on approach. And if you shoot from range, they'll be fighting at optimum ranges for shredding through your men who now don't have LMG or any real tool for dealing with them. Basically think of them as souped up grens but good and lack AT.

They're meant to handle vetted infantry (but can't really handle lmg vet mainlines until they get vetted up too). Stock infantry just get slaughtered. They'll vet up super fast to III+ and then they are nigh unstoppable by stock infantry or even squad-for-squad lmg vet mainlines (which is intended).

Multiple con squads will still walk over them but it's at grave cost unless they're going PPSH or SVT perhaps.
27 Nov 2020, 19:14 PM
#64
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 18:39 PMKT610


you might be right, but what if the obers bundle grenade was replaced with a normal grenade Like what MP40 Volks or Pfus get? That should tone down a bit by making less capable against multiple conscript squads


That should be done with PnzGren's Grenade, or too all Bundels. Making Bundle into an AT-grenade like sattle.
27 Nov 2020, 20:14 PM
#65
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 11:09 AMKatitof

This is actually SPECIFICALLY why they DO NOT have fausts from get go, so these units can actually be used against them, especially M3 as UC does something from range.


Might as well give into that and purposely buff the scout cars with that into consideration. It's not like the M3 is usable at all vs OH.

27 Nov 2020, 20:30 PM
#66
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Might as well give into that and purposely buff the scout cars with that into consideration. It's not like the M3 is usable at all vs OH.


I wouldn't mind. M3 could use higher long range DPS, so it doesn't have to always relay on crew riding it or sticking barrel of that HMG into krauts ass.
27 Nov 2020, 20:50 PM
#67
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



Ehhh the problem is not a (dodgeable) gift basket but the fact that 0.7 model size infantry with 30.8-66.7% more dps than grens (0-35 range) is suicide to charge into with stock cons/mainlines. Grens are 0.91 model size for reference. Maybe riflemen can get away with it, but expect to lose 2-3 models on approach. And if you shoot from range, they'll be fighting at optimum ranges for shredding through your men who now don't have LMG or any real tool for dealing with them. Basically think of them as souped up grens but good and lack AT.

They're meant to handle vetted infantry (but can't really handle lmg vet mainlines until they get vetted up too). Stock infantry just get slaughtered. They'll vet up super fast to III+ and then they are nigh unstoppable by stock infantry or even squad-for-squad lmg vet mainlines (which is intended).

Multiple con squads will still walk over them but it's at grave cost unless they're going PPSH or SVT perhaps.



what if were Obers reworked a bit so that don't make cons redundant but are still strong mid to late game infantry:

squad now available from Command HQ

Lmg34 and IR STG require Schwerer Panzer HQ

squad size increased from 4 to 5

damage per shot reduced from 16 to 14

80/16 = 5 shots kill a model

80/14 = 6 shots kill a model

Squad accuracy reduced to grenadier level:

Vet0

Near 0.92 to 0.748

Mid 0.863 to 0.661

Far 0.805 to 0.598

vet3

Near 1.288 to 1.0472

Mid 1.2082 to 0.9254

Far 1.127 to 0.8372

squad target size increased 0.7 to 8.5

reinforce cost down from 40 to 30 (total reinforce cost remains the 120 if squad is reduce to 1
27 Nov 2020, 20:58 PM
#69
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 211




Fastest path to Ostwind:
BP1 100mp, BP2 200mp, T3 140mp, total of 440mp
SWS 70mp, BGHQ 200mp, SWS 70mp, SPHQ unupgraded 100mp, total of 440mp


Ost may need an additional 80mp and/or 100mp for T1/T2, but OKW squads are a bit more expensive. The 251/17 is also more expensive than Ost's LVs in terms of manpower. Manpower and fuel costs for Ostwind are now roughly equal. Whether or not that's okay within OKW remains to be seen (please test).


Okw path that provides relevant unit production in a real game, healing, and tech for > 440 mp

Wehr path that provides relevant unit production in a real game, healing, and tech for > 770 mp.

No, the manpower and fuel costs for ostwind aren't now roughly equal. They are only equal if you completely ignore the relevant tech structures, and healing, that makeup Ost's core army production (T1 for grens and T2 for paks). Your math isn't wrong, but the way in which you constructed your argument for "roughly equal" is far removed from the reality of a game both in 1v1 and in team games.
27 Nov 2020, 21:03 PM
#70
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 587

Panzer II Luchs
The Luch's veterancy 5 Suppressive Fire ability is being improved by allowing its coaxial to deal suppression, as well as the main gun. This will allow the Luchs to pin infantry after several seconds of sustained fire.
- Coaxial MG now deals suppression during 'Suppressive Fire' ability.
- Coaxial burst length increased by 300% during Suppressive Fire and accuracy reduced by 50%


I am not necessarily against these changes but by the time you get a Luchs to Vet 5 to use Suppressive Fire you most likely won the game at that point as the Luchs was able to commit mass genocide and solo entire infantry armies. While a nice change, I would like to see the ability actually seen in a normal game that isn't a complete stomp. Maybe move suppressive fire to Vet 1, give it like a 30 second cooldown, increase ammo cost to around 20-40 or so then have Vet 5 reduce the cooldown/ammo cost to current levels.
27 Nov 2020, 21:31 PM
#71
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Panzer II Luchs
snip


Yep, suppression-ability should be vet3 or so.
27 Nov 2020, 22:02 PM
#73
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 867

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 20:50 PMKT610



what if were Obers reworked a bit so that don't make cons redundant but are still strong mid to late game infantry:

squad now available from Command HQ

Lmg34 and IR STG require Schwerer Panzer HQ

squad size increased from 4 to 5

damage per shot reduced from 16 to 14

80/16 = 5 shots kill a model

80/14 = 6 shots kill a model

Squad accuracy reduced to grenadier level:

Vet0

Near 0.92 to 0.748

Mid 0.863 to 0.661

Far 0.805 to 0.598

vet3

Near 1.288 to 1.0472

Mid 1.2082 to 0.9254

Far 1.127 to 0.8372

squad target size increased 0.7 to 8.5

reinforce cost down from 40 to 30 (total reinforce cost remains the 120 if squad is reduce to 1


Isn't this just a Grenadier ? >.< Seriously, they're fine as is in terms of combat performance overall. And that's coming from someone with an Obersoldaten in the portrait. I'll bow out of this convo now.
27 Nov 2020, 22:08 PM
#74
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

BGHQ changes are good. Makes back teaching to medics much easier and BGHQ itself is easier to use. This has further ramifications I’ll talk about below. Right now this saves 45 munitions and around 100 manpower and 10 fuel.

Volksgrenadier change is fine. Slower sandbag building is a nerf to them but that should be fine.

Strumpioneer changes are good. Good QoL to them.

Flak Halftrack imo may not need this change. With the change to BGHQ there is a stronger spike in power level where you get an extra stg on a volks and end up saving 10 fuel and 100 manpower to go into schwerer faster than you normally would. Making it so the Halftrack still arrive on its current time while also just giving the OKW another upgrade and faster tech could be a problem where they just snowball into an unstoppable force.

IR Halftrack, Panzer II Luchs, Puma, and JLI are all fine changes. Only minor buffs/nerfs that shouldn’t cause any serious problems balance wise.

Stuka - Probably fine? I’ve heard various thoughts on this change but it probably is one in need of more testing since it changes so much for the unit.

Schwerer Panzer HQ - This is a massive and very problematic change that shouldn’t go through. The timings for the Ostwind and Hetzer are simply to ridiculous and currently it isn’t hard to just pump one out on like 13 min before any medium comes out and also a point where there is little that can stop them. The Ostwind and Hetzer do need better timing windows but making the come 40 fuel sooner is just way way to much. It would be much better to just apply some buffs to the units themselves. Imo leave the Ostwind and Hetzer behind Panzer Auth, go through with the BGHQ changes that saves fuel, and then buff the 2 units to improve their timing as needed. That could be anything from making them a tad cheaper in fuel to just making them a call in so they don’t have to wait through a build time. On the topic of obers you could leave them at this new timing but it is a pretty sizeable buff. It’s a good couple minutes faster where they have more time to tear up infantry and build vet so this needs to be considered very carefully.
27 Nov 2020, 22:46 PM
#75
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


snip


jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 01:19 AMDharx

snip

Well, I guess it isn't a big issue, I just find it impossible for unvetted Volks to do any damage late game and vet up even with 2 StGs considering that a single BAR is better than both and Rifles can have 2.

I agree that I don't particularly like the Sturmpioneer changes.
27 Nov 2020, 23:10 PM
#76
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


Schwerer Panzer HQ - This is a massive and very problematic change that shouldn’t go through. The timings for the Ostwind and Hetzer are simply to ridiculous and currently it isn’t hard to just pump one out on like 13 min before any medium comes out and also a point where there is little that can stop them. The Ostwind and Hetzer do need better timing windows but making the come 40 fuel sooner is just way way to much. It would be much better to just apply some buffs to the units themselves. Imo leave the Ostwind and Hetzer behind Panzer Auth, go through with the BGHQ changes that saves fuel, and then buff the 2 units to improve their timing as needed. That could be anything from making them a tad cheaper in fuel to just making them a call in so they don’t have to wait through a build time. On the topic of obers you could leave them at this new timing but it is a pretty sizeable buff. It’s a good couple minutes faster where they have more time to tear up infantry and build vet so this needs to be considered very carefully.

How about making Schwerer Panzer cheaper and making Panzer Auth more expensive? I know the whole point is to help Obers get their upgrades faster, but tbh, I find unupgraded Obers already quite useful.
27 Nov 2020, 23:41 PM
#77
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 23:10 PMSpoof

How about making Schwerer Panzer cheaper and making Panzer Auth more expensive? I know the whole point is to help Obers get their upgrades faster, but tbh, I find unupgraded Obers already quite useful.


Maybe but I don’t even think obers really need much of a buff on anything. As I said before the BGHQ buffs has a lot of things it affects and that 10 fuel saved from not needing to get a second upgrade makes anything that comes after the HQ faster come out by proxy. So like obers would be coming out earlier with just that change. If there is 100% going to be a change to change the obers I think that change makes the most sense. It would depend on exact numbers but something like 50/70 for Schwerer and Auth might be fine. It would at be a buff to the ober timing without changing their MG timing. Still seems like it could very easily cause problems alongside BGHQ changes. I don’t think the upgrade needs to come any faster and other things that need better timings can be buffed other ways. I think (and form what I hear many others agree) the current change is super broken in terms of timing compared to power.
27 Nov 2020, 23:42 PM
#78
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

Honestly the only issue I see is the Hetzer and Ostwind, either make them require Panzer Authorization again or increase the Battlegroup cost by like 10-15 fuel so it delays them a bit since skipping Flak HT allows for a really fast timing that isn't countered unless the opponent goes double AT guns.
28 Nov 2020, 00:18 AM
#79
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1021

Is there any discussion about Panzerfusiliers & their early panzerfaust? If I recall, changes to Volksgrenadier faust timing was to allow more openers for t1 soviets. Regardless, I always felt frustrated that panzerfusiliers come at 0 CPs and have that faust whereas volksgrenadiers do not.

I'd love for volks and panzerfusilier faust timing to be the same.
28 Nov 2020, 00:33 AM
#80
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Is there any discussion about Panzerfusiliers & their early panzerfaust? If I recall, changes to Volksgrenadier faust timing was to allow more openers for t1 soviets. Regardless, I always felt frustrated that panzerfusiliers come at 0 CPs and have that faust whereas volksgrenadiers do not.

I'd love for volks and panzerfusilier faust timing to be the same.

Part of the reason panzerfusiliers start with AT rifle grenades is so you have a doctrinal counter to the early clown car and UC. If Fusiliers require a change, the AT rifle grenade definitely should not be one of the changes.
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