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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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8 Jan 2021, 18:20 PM
#401
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1


Bullshit. Range of AT guns makes that point moot

Plus the matches where you would do this are long ones with camping anyway. Cause your target would be artillery

Feel free to provide a replay with zis creeping in the back line even if it lost or even how long it going to get to do so.

Even if RW manage to get behind enemy lines before a game is the chance of RW successfully retreating from the back lines is extremely low so it hardly an issue.


As I have also pointed out there are also other solution. The currently implementation is simply bad for the reason I have explained.

Feel free to suggested another solution.
8 Jan 2021, 18:24 PM
#402
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:20 PMVipper

Feel free to provide a replay with zis creeping in the back line even if it lost or even how long it going to get to do so.

Even if RW manage to get behind enemy lines before a game is the chance of RW successfully retreating from the back lines is extremely low so it hardly an issue.

They already tried slower speed and it was removed. The vet 1 speed bonus went from 100% to 25% before they changed it to locking in place

You have no right to request replays from anyone. If that's your standard then most of your arguments can get tossed out the window
jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:20 PMVipper

As I have also pointed out there are also other solution. The currently implementation is simply bad for the reason I have explained.

Feel free to suggested another solution.

I'm only talking about your suggestion that giving them movement isn't a balance issue
8 Jan 2021, 18:40 PM
#403
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1


They already tried slower speed and it was removed. The vet 1 speed bonus went from 100% to 25% before they changed it to locking in place......

That is inaccurate and irrelevant.

RW had camo from vet 0 and could move faster than Zis/M-42.

It was then move to vet 1 and locked the unit place.


You have no right to request replays from anyone. If that's your standard than most of your arguments can get tossed out the window

You have claimed that zis can be moved behind enemy lines. I have never seen that be done successfully. Have you ever done that successfully or are you just theorizing?



I'm only talking about your suggestion that giving them movement isn't a balance issue

It is not. Other ATG have and it is not an issue and it has not cause any issues.

Current implementation is player unfriendly and unit has inferior vet bonuses. Either fix the camo or removed and fix the vet bonuses.
8 Jan 2021, 18:44 PM
#404
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:40 PMVipper

That is inaccurate and irrelevant.

RW had camo from vet 0 and could move faster than Zis/M-42.

It is not inaccurate at all. It was not that much faster after the speed bonus nerf, it was still wicked slow and still used for creeping

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:40 PMVipper

You have claimed that zis can be moved behind enemy lines. I have never seen that be done successfully. Have you ever done that successfully or are you just theorizing?

I literally told you it can't be done successfully. Because it can't retreat

Yes I'm theorizing? Like that's a problem for you? It's based on previous changes and a pretty obvious fucking difference between the Rak and ZiS. It's not a complicated theory

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:40 PMVipper
It is not. Other ATG have and it is not an issue and it has not cause any issues.

Other AT guns can't retreat. If you think Rak should lose retreat, I agree
8 Jan 2021, 18:48 PM
#405
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1


It is not inaccurate at all. It was not that much faster after the speed bonus nerf, it was still wicked slow and still used for creeping

Do you have any idea what the speed of cloak zis/M-42 is? it was allot faster.


I literally told you it can't be done successfully. Because it can't retreat

I say move a zis to back lines successfully, it does not need retreat to do that.


Yes I'm theorizing? Like that's a problem for you?

I suggest you tone down the personal comments and focus on RW and not the person


Other AT guns can't retreat. If you think Rak should lose retreat, I agree

It is completely irrelevant and feel free to disagree.
8 Jan 2021, 18:52 PM
#406
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:48 PMVipper

Do you have any idea what the speed of cloak zis/M-42 is? it was allot faster.

Yes I am aware. It was a LOT faster when the bonus was 100%, then it was nerfed. And that was still at vet 1, the vet 0 cloaked rak was slow

The retreat function is relevant to ANY change you make with the Rak. Under no circumstances is it irrelevant

You can't say something like "there is no reason for this unit to behave differently then others" when it already behaves differently in one of the most fundamental ways possible
8 Jan 2021, 18:53 PM
#407
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97



How can you not see it? It allows you to be so much more aggressive with it, with or without cloaking


I meant cloaking has nothing to do with that. I am aware how to use raketen.

Retreat doesn't affect all of this at all. Raketens still get used the same with or without cloak. You aren't going to move agressively cloaked raketens because you always have some support with them anyway at least for sight, so cloaking doesn't make any difference with aggressive plays.

It is needed because if you set up an ambush with cloaked raketens, you can't move using Tac Map and you have to always remember to uncloack them just to move even a little.

Can you provide an example of this consistency change being OP? Like you still move your raketens aggressively with or without cloak so there's no point arguing this one.
8 Jan 2021, 18:56 PM
#408
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


Can you provide an example of this consistency change being OP? Like you still move your raketens aggressively with or without cloak so there's no point arguing this one.

Yeah I just said that... That's a balance issue all by itself is my point

The example is the old Rak? Did you play the game during the Rak creeping?
8 Jan 2021, 18:59 PM
#409
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1


Yes I am aware. It was a LOT faster when the bonus was 100%, then it was nerfed. And that was still at vet 1, the vet 0 cloaked rak was slow

And it vet 0 RW was still a lot faster than zis/M-42 that has speed bellow 1.


The retreat function is relevant to ANY change you make with the Rak. Under no circumstances is it irrelevant

You can't say something like "there is no reason for this unit to behave differently then others" when it already behaves differently in one of the most fundamental ways possible

We have to agree to disagree.
8 Jan 2021, 18:59 PM
#410
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97


Yeah I just said that... That's a balance issue all by itself is my point

The example is the old Rak? Did you play the game during the Rak creeping?


Did you see that the game changed and all cloaked ATGs move slowly? You can just adjust the cloaked movement speed to 25%, I really don't care. But requiring the player to consciously toggle and untoggle this button just to move is just dumb when there's not a SINGLE other unit who needs that.
8 Jan 2021, 19:04 PM
#411
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

But requiring the player to consciously toggle and untoggle this button just to move is just dumb when there's not a SINGLE other unit who needs that.

I am not arguing against this

I think that the Rak retreating is a problem independently of it's camo function. My point is that improving that function while it still has a feature it shouldn't is not a good idea. Especially improving it in a way that used to be completely broken

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:59 PMVipper

And it vet 0 RW was still a lot faster than zis/M-42 that has speed bellow 1.

Well I can't debate what the words "A Lot" mean to you. I can say that I have no problem with your goal as long as you don't give the Rak movement with camo. Or feel free to rework it completely and remove retreat
8 Jan 2021, 19:12 PM
#412
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97


I am not arguing against this

I think that the Rak retreating is a problem independently of it's camo function. My point is that improving that function while it still has a feature it shouldn't is not a good idea


As long as the balance team tests this and adjusts the cloaked moving speed, it will be fine.B-) Don't know about you but I personally suffered from this non-moving crap and it just doesn't make any sense. And I just stopped using raketen cloaking altogether because of it. Though you might say it's a matter of git-gud but I say it's a non-intuitive crap and feels as if we had to reload HMGs ourselves.
8 Jan 2021, 19:48 PM
#413
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1



As long as the balance team tests this and adjusts the cloaked moving speed, it will be fine.B-) Don't know about you but I personally suffered from this non-moving crap and it just doesn't make any sense. And I just stopped using raketen cloaking altogether because of it. Though you might say it's a matter of git-gud but I say it's a non-intuitive crap and feels as if we had to reload HMGs ourselves.

I would guess many people do not use the cloak on RW.

And there solutions. If making in line with M-42 does not work one could simply make it passive that would break once the unit moved.
8 Jan 2021, 19:49 PM
#414
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Creeping rak was cancer why are we even pretending otherwise? It's a hard no for its return from me
8 Jan 2021, 19:56 PM
#415
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

Creeping rak was cancer why are we even pretending otherwise? It's a hard no for its return from me

No ones is suggesting to return to that.
8 Jan 2021, 23:09 PM
#416
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 18:40 PMVipper


Current implementation is player unfriendly and unit has inferior vet bonuses. Either fix the camo or removed and fix the vet bonuses.


Agree it is really un friendly, they have to rework the ability or change it.
11 Jan 2021, 11:57 AM
#417
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

RW needs to be looked and especially its vet bonuses and camo.

I would also suggested the unit's unique feature of being able to garrison should be improved. Currently vet 1/vet 3/vet 4 provide nothing to the unit when in garrison.
11 Jan 2021, 12:13 PM
#418
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Be nice for the rakk to get increased pen in garrison, but not sure how to communicate that.
11 Jan 2021, 17:35 PM
#419
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 16:34 PMVipper
Pls change the RF camo.

RW is the only atg that become immobile when in camo and implementation is very player unfriendly.

Either make the camo passive and automatic when stationary or allow the unit to move at lower speed like other atg with camo.


I think you might be onto something with visible when moving under 'toggled on' camo. But it'd be more of a QoL change, likely with reduced speed under this status. An argument for this would be that one could achieve the same result faster with toggle off -> move -> toggle on but it'd be very cumbersome.

If one use attack order the unit will stop once cloaked but will continue to "remember" the attack order and move once it is revealed for any reason (AOE damage, reckon planes, firing).


I had forgotten about how sometimes I have to manually re-enable cloak on cloaked raks stuck in the 'reveal' status. Is that a bug or something?
11 Jan 2021, 18:24 PM
#420
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

RW moving cammo was removed because the combination of retreat and moving cammo provided too much reward for the amount of risk involved when going commando with them. It shouldn't be brought back without additional changes.
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