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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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5 Jan 2021, 06:40 AM
#1181
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

Yeah I agree with the sentiment that Tier 1 and 2 are probably too expensive mp wise. If they were both 100 instead of 160 I think that would make backteching early game way more viable. Right now if I go Tier 1 I don't feel like I can backtech until I am at Tier 4 because I don't want to delay timings on units due to MP bleed. Would also reduce the reliance on the M-42 for AT which is kind of a crutch right now if you go Tier 1, unless you rely solely on Guards and PTRS Penals but they don't scale too well.
5 Jan 2021, 06:41 AM
#1182
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1936 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 06:37 AMOlfin


This should happen in the next commanders patch for the 34-85.


This should have happened several years ago.
5 Jan 2021, 07:41 AM
#1183
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1

...
The other option comes from an idea in MirageFla's personal balance change mod which made it so once T1 was built the Molotov for conscripts was automatically researched.
So what if something similar was done with the current grenade package?
...

Soviet Tech does not need further discount.

T1 already give access to sacthels/AT sacthels/PTRS with no additional cost.

Yeah I agree with the sentiment that Tier 1 and 2 are probably too expensive mp wise. If they were both 100 instead of 160 I think that would make backteching early game way more viable. Right now if I go Tier 1 I don't feel like I can backtech until I am at Tier 4 because I don't want to delay timings on units due to MP bleed. Would also reduce the reliance on the M-42 for AT which is kind of a crutch right now if you go Tier 1, unless you rely solely on Guards and PTRS Penals but they don't scale too well.

Soviet tech does not really need more discounts.

In addition that would make commander that provide doctrinal support weapons less attractive.

The problem lies in the design not the balance.
5 Jan 2021, 07:52 AM
#1184
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:41 AMVipper

Soviet tech does not really need more discounts.

In addition that would make commander that provide doctrinal support weapons less attractive.

The problem lies in the design not the balance.


Changing how players can mix T0/T1/T2 units is faction design.
5 Jan 2021, 08:01 AM
#1185
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1



Changing how players can mix T0/T1/T2 units is faction design.

In that case it should be followed by a change in doctrinal units, if one want an Ostheer stock roaster one should also get an ostheer doctrinal units available to them.

That would be a change in the faction design.
5 Jan 2021, 08:03 AM
#1186
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1

Su-85 focus sight/tracking combinatin should be looked at.

I would also add pop and XP value.
5 Jan 2021, 08:03 AM
#1187
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:41 AMVipper

Soviet Tech does not need further discount.

T1 already give access to sacthels/AT sacthels/PTRS with no additional cost.


Soviet tech does not really need more discounts.

In addition that would make commander that provide doctrinal support weapons less attractive.

The problem lies in the design not the balance.


soviet tech is still unnecessarily expensive... molotov/AT sidegrade does not deserve to exist...
5 Jan 2021, 08:10 AM
#1188
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 536

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:03 AMVipper
Su-85 focus sight/tracking combinatin should be looked at.

I would also add pop and XP value.

When mod team announces cheaper tech for soviet, Vipper moves on to the next unit in the faction that he wants nerfed.
5 Jan 2021, 08:15 AM
#1189
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


When mod team announces cheaper tech for soviet, Vipper moves on to the next unit in the faction that he wants nerfed.

Do you have any sort of an argument why SU-85 should have:
Lower XP value than TD of its class
Lower Pop than TD of its class
More sight than most reckon vehicles

Or you single argument is if vipper post something it must be wrong.
5 Jan 2021, 08:25 AM
#1190
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:01 AMVipper

In that case it should be followed by a change in doctrinal units, if one want an Ostheer stock roaster one should also get an ostheer doctrinal units available to them.

That would be a change in the faction design.


Both factions have supplemental doctrinal units. Ostruppen, assault grens, halftracks, MG34 drop, arti officer, stormtroops, and jeager command squad are available to Ost in addition to a complete early game stock roster.
5 Jan 2021, 08:29 AM
#1191
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 536

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:15 AMVipper

Do you have any sort of an argument why SU-85 should have:
Lower XP value than TD of its class
Lower Pop than TD of its class
More sight than most reckon vehicles

Or you single argument is if vipper post something it must be wrong.

It's nothing personal man, I just find it amusing that you take a buff to this particular faction as a loss and immediately move on to your next 'mission'.

I don't know why you've fixated on this faction as needing nerfs. Objectively it's in a pretty good place.
5 Jan 2021, 08:33 AM
#1192
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 07:41 AMVipper

Soviet Tech does not need further discount.

Why?
Have you seen how much they have shaved off of ost tech to allow them to easily get T4?
Why can't same be done for soviet early tech?

T1 already give access to sacthels/AT sacthels/PTRS with no additional cost.

ALL of tech for ALL of the factions give unit AND its abilities/upgrades when applicable for additional cost.
It might be a shocker for you, but you don't need a side upgrade to shoot P4s main gun or get a pintle, or to get ober bundle nades and LMGs.

Soviet tech does not really need more discounts.

Based on....?
Again, Ost tech was getting adjustments and discounts and bonus starting mp for the tech until it was in a sweet spot.
Why other factions should be excluded from this?

In addition that would make commander that provide doctrinal support weapons less attractive.

DSHK is already much stronger then Maxim, 120mm can be buffed as much as its needed for it to be better then stock mortar. M-42 doesn't murder your manpower economy if you went T1 and specifically penals.
Don't worry, these weapons have plenty of appeal and still, ironically, M-42 is the one that's being used the most.

The problem lies in the design not the balance.

That's your personal opinion and that opinion is wrong as empirically we have established that it is exactly balance, mainly prohibitive initial timing with focused opening and underwhelming late game scaling that's the core of units problem, not the fact it can have AT.

If it was like you actually claim, then USF and UKF would not have weapon racks with AT weapons on them for mainline infantry/other infantry with snares to pick and PGs would not have shreck upgrade but another unit.

We know how reality is.
Time for you to accept it as well.
5 Jan 2021, 08:45 AM
#1193
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1



Both factions have supplemental doctrinal units. Ostruppen, assault grens, halftracks, MG34 drop, arti officer, stormtroops, and jeager command squad are available to Ost in addition to a complete early game stock roster.

Making the tech cost cheaper as suggested without out changing anything else is not a redesign, is straight up buff.

The faction that has already received tech buffs with cheaper (and better) medic, lower cost for At/molotv combo, faster T3 and better MR.

There is no need for further buff to soviet tech
5 Jan 2021, 08:48 AM
#1194
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1


It's nothing personal man, I just find it amusing that you take a buff to this particular faction as a loss and immediately move on to your next 'mission'.

I don't know why you've fixated on this faction as needing nerfs. Objectively it's in a pretty good place.

That simply demonstrated that you are biased and perceive my points as "missions".

I have point that issue of the SU-85 long before the "cheaper tech", even long before the preview patch. The post the Soviet changes are simply unrelated.

My advice to you focus more on the point and if is reasonable and less to who made the point.
5 Jan 2021, 09:00 AM
#1195
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:45 AMVipper

Making the tech cost cheaper as suggested without out changing anything else is not a redesign, is straight up buff.

The faction that has already received tech buffs with cheaper (and better) medic, lower cost for At/molotv combo, faster T3 and better MR.

There is no need for further buff to soviet tech

And together with all these, it would be your ever so praised redesign as it would be just another cog in redesign tech machine which is currently moving for soviets.
5 Jan 2021, 09:07 AM
#1196
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:03 AMVipper
Su-85 focus sight/tracking combinatin should be looked at.

I would also add pop and XP value.


I don't think there's a problem with that unit at all. Or can you provide examples? I tried the mod last night in three 2on2s OST vs SOV and it feels like SOVs are slowly heading to the right place.

But out of curiosity, why do you say "looking at" when you are clearly avoiding the term "nerf"?


edit: Oh, other people have pointed it out. You even say "no need for further buffs". So you mean by "looking at" you actually mean "nerfs", right??
5 Jan 2021, 09:07 AM
#1197
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:45 AMVipper

Making the tech cost cheaper as suggested without out changing anything else is not a redesign, is straight up buff.

The faction that has already received tech buffs with cheaper (and better) medic, lower cost for At/molotv combo, faster T3 and better MR.

There is no need for further buff to soviet tech


I'm not a fan of the cheaper T3. In my opinion it should be more expensive. See my post below from your penal thread.

I'm interested in seeing all factions not having to spam 4x basic infantry before tech to maintain early game field presence. Or having to spam a call-in or alternative mainline like Penals because mixing units is prohibited by excessive tech costs.

Step1: Make Satchel bundle nade equivalent in time/AoE to make Penals viable anti-infantry after the early/midgame.
Step2: Penal Satchel now requires upgrade so they are no minute 1 Pgrens.
Step3: Penal Satchel, conscript Molos and AT nades are all unlocked together in a single upgrade. This makes combining conscripts and penals in a single build viable.

Penal problems solved.

Optional Step4: Reduce tech cost of T1 and T2, increase tech cost of T3 to make T1 a less 'all or nothing' investment and make T2 more attractive in the early game. This would make T1+T2 builds viable. the changes can be further expanded upon to make Soviets less cheesy by making zis3 barrage a vet ability (it's less needed when a stock grenade is available), and making penal PTRS rifles less effective against infantry since penal/maxim combos could be a thing actually worth making.
5 Jan 2021, 09:42 AM
#1198
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12567 | Subs: 1



I'm not a fan of the cheaper T3. In my opinion it should be more expensive. See my post below from your penal thread.

I'm interested in seeing all factions not having to spam 4x basic infantry before tech to maintain early game field presence. Or having to spam a call-in or alternative mainline like Penals because mixing units is prohibited by excessive tech costs.


You suggestion make more sense but I was replaying to suggestion about further lowering the total Soviet cost with out any other changes, that make little sense is it would yet another tech buff when Soviet already got tech buffs.

As for 4 basic infatry spam that is combination of power creep and nerf to support weapons (and mostly mortars) that have turned combines armies less effective than "brutal" force armies. Even with lower tech changes I doubt it is going to encourage Soviet going for combined arms.

UKF have a good HMG available at T0 and USF have a good mortar available at T0 and neither see enough action. That leave OKW that do not have early support weapon and Ostheer who simply lose if they go 4 grenadiers.
5 Jan 2021, 10:39 AM
#1199
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 09:42 AMVipper

UKF have a good HMG available at T0 and USF have a good mortar available at T0 and neither see enough action. That leave OKW that do not have early support weapon and Ostheer who simply lose if they go 4 grenadiers.

Puppchen was removed from T0?

Don't be misleading.

What you wanted to say is:

That leave OKW that do not have early support weapon that I would like
5 Jan 2021, 12:08 PM
#1200
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5272

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jan 2021, 08:45 AMVipper

Making the tech cost cheaper as suggested without out changing anything else is not a redesign, is straight up buff.

The faction that has already received tech buffs with cheaper (and better) medic, lower cost for At/molotv combo, faster T3 and better MR.

There is no need for further buff to soviet tech

Medics was a much needed change to put it part way near half as effective as all other factions healing, the moli/ at combo is not a better price, it's a nerf to the AT nade price by shackeling it to what is possibly the worst ability in the game. Faster t3 is coming in the heels of a massive tone down of the T70, THE crutch unit, the only thing that gets soviet through the mid game...

Medics aside these are not buffs, these are adjustments. At this point working in a MP reduction to some techs would ALSO not be buffs, but adjustments because as it stands with the nerfs to the T70 soviet might not be making it through the mid game. Having units to support penals wouldn't break the game when you consider the loss of T70 power spike. Hell, combined with the increased price on the AT nade, it would probably have t3 hitting at the same time as now
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