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3 Jan 2021, 08:07 AM
#1141
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



I think the point he is making is that being able to do more damage with fresh squads gets your units vetted up faster then tanking damage with fresh squads. Ai upgrades and nades such as bundle nades do more then having 6 instead of 4/5 men.

And penal can vet up by using single satchel vs a stationary target or AT satchel vs a vehicle.

Point here is that all vet 0 infatry straggle to vet in late game battlefield. (Try to vet a PG when there is an ISU-152 out).

Will one build a Penal squad in late game to replace a lost squad? Probably not but it is hared to lose a squad the first place.

I am not sure what people expect of Penals, if one makes them able to take on Obers will that actually make the game better?
3 Jan 2021, 08:09 AM
#1142
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 07:51 AMVipper

And it harder to lose a Penal squad with 6 entities and to the last ability than a 4 man squad like PG.

In order to get into grenade range or even mid range for ST44 Pg lose entities that more expensive the Penal models.

As I point the grenade is simply not enough to make a unit successful.


If you think that getting a penal squad lategame is as an effective investment as a Pgren squad then I'll let you live in fantasy land.
3 Jan 2021, 08:14 AM
#1143
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



If you think that getting a penal squad lategame is as an effective investment as a Pgren squad then I'll let you live in fantasy land.

Since you seem to believe that it Pg in late is good investment next time you play as Ostheer build a pg squad in late lets us know how much veterancy it gain facing vetted allied infatry and AI vehicles.

What I have pointed out to you is that bundle grenade argument hold less water than you think.

I am also do not understand why in you opinion a unit that starts superior to other infantries of it time should remain superior in all stage of the game.

Bottom line is T1 and Penals are badly designed and buffing them will really solve their problems. That is why I have started a separate thread about them.
3 Jan 2021, 08:31 AM
#1144
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 07:51 AMVipper

And it harder to lose a Penal squad with 6 entities and to the last ability than a 4 man squad like PG.

Neither P4 nor brummbar give a shit.

In order to get into grenade range or even mid range for ST44 Pg lose entities that more expensive the Penal models.

Let me remind you that PG nade was so overpowered "utility" that they had to lose range vet for it to keep it in check in late game specifically, when PGs are vetted.

As I point the grenade is simply not enough to make a unit successful.

No, its not.
It does help a whole fucking lot tho.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:07 AMVipper

And penal can vet up by using single satchel vs a stationary target or AT satchel vs a vehicle.

And how are you going to achieve this in a game where opponent didn't went to get groceries mid game?

Point here is that all vet 0 infatry straggle to vet in late game battlefield. (Try to vet a PG when there is an ISU-152 out).

True, but having actual weapon upgrades and/or grenades do significantly speed up the process.

Will one build a Penal squad in late game to replace a lost squad? Probably not but it is hared to lose a squad the first place.

No, its not.
Its called AoE and there is plenty of it in late game, it does not give a crap if there are 2 man squads or 6 man squads, brummbar-the meta AI unit, says hi again.

I am not sure what people expect of Penals, if one makes them able to take on Obers will that actually make the game better?

People expect a 300mp unit to be something more them massive MP bleed in late game.
3 Jan 2021, 08:33 AM
#1145
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Neither P4 nor brummbar give a shit.


Let me remind you that PG nade was so overpowered "utility" that they had to lose range vet for it to keep it in check in late game specifically, when PGs are vetted.


No, its not.
It does help a whole fucking lot tho.

Feel free to provide you replays where you build your late game PG and manage to get vet 3 by using their grenade.
3 Jan 2021, 08:35 AM
#1146
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:33 AMVipper

Feel free to provide you replays where you build your late game PG and manage to get vet 3 by using their grenade.

Right after you provide replays where you're killing anything that isn't decrewed team weapon with satchel.
Your claim was made first so ....
3 Jan 2021, 08:43 AM
#1147
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1256

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:07 AMVipper

And penal can vet up by using single satchel vs a stationary target or AT satchel vs a vehicle.

Point here is that all vet 0 infatry straggle to vet in late game battlefield. (Try to vet a PG when there is an ISU-152 out).

Will one build a Penal squad in late game to replace a lost squad? Probably not but it is hared to lose a squad the first place.

I am not sure what people expect of Penals, if one makes them able to take on Obers will that actually make the game better?


I am not saying buff penal base stats. I am saying a bundle nade or ai upgrade will do wonders vetting up fresh squads, more then just be expensive 6 men squads with good base stats.

Imo being 6 men is no garantee to being wiped less often.
Gren pgrens obers ostwind p4 brumbar ostwind k-tiger teller and smines al have good aoe on their guns and nades to wipe, soviets only have close range katty kv2 and isu. Easely balancing 4 v 6 men.
3 Jan 2021, 09:06 AM
#1149
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 570

Meh again
3 Jan 2021, 09:14 AM
#1150
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

All decrewed weapons should be equally easily destroyed no matter how it scales.


Agreed
3 Jan 2021, 09:26 AM
#1151
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:14 AMVipper

Since you seem to believe that it Pg in late is good investment next time you play as Ostheer build a pg squad in late lets us know how much veterancy it gain facing vetted allied infatry and AI vehicles.

What I have pointed out to you is that bundle grenade argument hold less water than you think.


You are acting like getting a bundle nade wipe is something that rarely happens. You can just type 'CoH2 Ostheer' and pretty much half the replays you'll find will have at least 1 bundle nade wipe. Bundle nades don't care about veterancy either, they will kill vet3 as easy as vet0. Sure you'll lose more models with vet0 pgrens than you would with vet3, but you have serious wipe potential at vet0 and your nade will likely cause good damage even if your opponent reacts due to the high aoe and normal fuse time. Vet0 penals don't have this. They will only ever do any damage if the opponent is actually sleeping.


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:14 AMVipper

I am also do not understand why in you opinion a unit that starts superior to other infantries of it time should remain superior in all stage of the game.


Penals 'superiority' is balanced by their cost and tech cost. They aren't actually superior, they are just more expensive but ultimately balanced for (tech and unit) cost early game. If they were actually superior, penal openings would be overpowered and the dominant meta - and it's neither of those.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 08:14 AMVipper

Bottom line is T1 and Penals are badly designed and buffing them will really solve their problems. That is why I have started a separate thread about them.


Thanks for seeing things my way. I suggest buffing them via utility in the form of a proper grenade.
3 Jan 2021, 09:27 AM
#1152
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Right after you provide replays where you're killing anything that isn't decrewed team weapon with satchel.
Your claim was made first so ....

You are the one making the claiming that bundle grenades "does help a whole fucking lot tho" so "replay or it did not happen" I never said claim it was easy
3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AM
#1153
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



You are acting like getting a bundle nade wipe is something that rarely happens. You can just type 'CoH2 Ostheer' and pretty much half the replays you'll find will have at least 1 bundle nade wipe. Bundle nades don't care about veterancy either, they will kill vet3 as easy as vet0. Sure you'll lose more models with vet0 pgrens than you would with vet3, but you have serious wipe potential at vet0 and your nade will likely cause good damage even if your opponent reacts due to the high aoe and normal fuse time. Vet0 penals don't have this. They will only ever do any damage if the opponent is actually sleeping.

As I have point out to you light gammon bomb are similar to bundle grenade and that is simply not enough to make the assault office a great unit. You are using the bundle grenade as justification for everything from zis barrage to need to buff Penal and that is simply not the case.

Now try to use a move vet 0 Pg to bundle grenade range vs late game allied units and see what happens.

Can the bundle grenade help a Pg vet? Yes it can under certain circumstance but claiming it is a reliable way of doing it is simply stretching it.


Penals 'superiority' is balanced by their cost and tech cost.

Which is bad design.


They aren't actually superior, they are just more expensive but ultimately balanced for (tech and unit) cost early game. If they were actually superior, penal openings would be overpowered and the dominant meta - and it's neither of those.

So Penal can not beat vanilla grenadier and vanilla VGs?

Penal opening where overpowered and dominant for years now they have simply powercreeped from the more more powerful conscript opening (while unable to deal with Osttr caping power).

And this will continue to be the case as long as their two mainline infatry available with their current designs. One will simply be superior to other and buffing one or the other will solve nothing while it will crate more power creep.


Thanks for seeing things my way. I suggest buffing them via utility in the form of a proper grenade.
I would no issue with replacing both satchel with grenade requiring tech, I doubt it would enough thou.

Problem remain T1/Penal design.
3 Jan 2021, 09:47 AM
#1154
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

As I have point out to you light gammon bomb are similar to bundle grenade and that is simply not enough to make the assault office a great unit. You are using the bundle grenade as justification for everything from zis barrage to need to buff Penal and that is simply not the case.

Now try to use a move vet 0 Pg to bundle grenade range vs late game allied units and see what happens.

Assault officer also starts as a 4 man squad, axis weapons are balanced around fighting 5 and 6 man squads and its much safer, easier and optimal to get tommies. If officer will vet up and not die by late game, he will be useful. You will still get better return on investment from PGs then officer.

Which is bad design.

Repeating it 100 times is not going to suddenly make it true.
You do not like the design.
That is what you wanted to say.


So Penal can not beat vanilla grenadier and vanilla VGs?

1v1 they sure can.
For map control and overall map presence? They can't, its not even a competition. You will ALWAYS outnumber penal build and if you can't use that to your advantage, it no longer is penals fault after all the nerfs they received.


Penal opening where overpowered and dominant for year now they have simply powercreeped from the more more powerful conscript opening. And this will continue to be the case as long as their two mainline infatry available with their current designs. One will simply be superior to other and buffing one or the other will solve nothing while it will crate more power creep.

And now penal openings are underpowered. Because Penals you have in your head and Penals we have currently in game are 2 completely different units. Everyone but you learned how to counter them and they do not have enough going for them to justify committing anymore, sorry, but no power creep here.
Con opening is not stronger, cons simply scale into the late game and do not sacrifice map control, its much safer opening.
One unit will always be meta vs another, even if both will be perfectly balanced and will scale into late game well, no surprise here, this is how its always been.
3 Jan 2021, 10:13 AM
#1155
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


Assault officer also starts as a 4 man squad, axis weapons are balanced around fighting 5 and 6 man squads and its much safer, easier and optimal to get tommies. If officer will vet up and not die by late game, he will be useful. You will still get better return on investment from PGs then officer.

There is not balancing specifically for 4, 5 and 6 men squad when it comes to infatry, that is simply another one of your "myths". Each unit has its own stat and power level and each unit be facing squad with different number of entities.

Conscript for instance face 4,5 and even 6 men entities and they are not designed to face specifically squad with set number of entities.


And my point remain the grenade is simply not enough to make assault officer as successful unit.

Repeating it 100 times is not going to suddenly make it true.
You do not like the design.
That is what you wanted to say.

No it bad design. And because of that design you keep repeating 100 times that penal need a weapon upgrade but that it not going to suddenly make it true.


1v1 they sure can.
For map control and overall map presence? They can't, its not even a competition. You will ALWAYS outnumber penal build and if you can't use that to your advantage, it no longer is penals fault after all the nerfs they received.

That you in agree to original point that Penal are superior to other infatry of their timing.

And no Penal have not received nerf in years. They utterly broken with flamers and remained dominant meta for year after they received PTRS.


And now penal openings are underpowered. Because Penals you have in your head and Penals we have currently in game are 2 completely different units.

Nope it Penal simply got powered creeped and can not handle Osttr.


Everyone but you learned how to counter them and they do not have enough going for them to justify committing anymore, sorry, but no power creep here.Con opening is not stronger, cons simply scale into the late game and do not sacrifice map control, its much safer opening.

So conscripts have not received any buff? Nice theory but not connection to reality


One unit will always be meta vs another, even if both will be perfectly balanced and will scale into late game well, no surprise here, this is how its always been.

Thank in agreeing with me. And that simply strenghts my point that buffing Penal will not solve the diversity issue and that simply need different design.

No matter how much twist you want to put on it T1/Penal are badly designed.
3 Jan 2021, 10:31 AM
#1156
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

As I have point out to you light gammon bomb are similar to bundle grenade and that is simply not enough to make the assault office a great unit. You are using the bundle grenade as justification for everything from zis barrage to need to buff Penal and that is simply not the case.


I never said that any grenady by itself makes a unit worth getting so I don't know why you keep bringin it up.

Penals and Zis3 are from tech tiers which are 90% of the time used in exclusion of eachother, so it's perfectly fair that both tiers have parallels to the bundle nade - which is always available to Ost/OKW regardless of tech path.



jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

Now try to use a move vet 0 Pg to bundle grenade range vs late game allied units and see what happens.


This might be news to you, but units can actually be used for other manouvers besides straight up cover V cover fights on the testing map. The tactical possibilities that units provide are calculated into their costs - which is why a infantry squad and a HMG are the same manpower price despite the fact that the HMG will always win an A-move simulation fight.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

Can the bundle grenade help a Pg vet? Yes it can under certain circumstance but claiming it is a reliable way of doing it is simply stretching it.


Bundle nades are reliable and are enough of a justification to make Pgrens lategame when you need to replace infantry squads. This is not a reach. Most infantry units have some form of this justification, others may have snares for example. This doesn't mean that the fresh units will dominate the field.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

So Penal can not beat vanilla grenadier and vanilla VGs?


That's not what I said. I said Penals are balanced for tech and unit cost. When Volks get more expensive and cost 160mp in early game tech before you can make them you can make this dumb 1 squad v 1 squad argument again.

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 09:36 AMVipper

Penal opening where overpowered and dominant for years now they have simply powercreeped from the more more powerful conscript opening (while unable to deal with Osttr caping power).

And this will continue to be the case as long as their two mainline infatry available with their current designs. One will simply be superior to other and buffing one or the other will solve nothing while it will crate more power creep.

Problem remain T1/Penal design.


If penals were overpowered but powercreeped by Conscripts, then logically either Soviets are super OP right now OR each faction has powercreeped to the point where they can stand up to the conscripts, which defacto makes penals UP in the here and now - the only time that matters. Since Soviets aren't winning any tournaments in the here and now I'm going to go with the second option.

Your opinion that penals and conscripts cant co-exist is getting old. Soviet T1 and T2 are exclusive in the early/mid-game and offer different playstyles. There is no reason why they both can't be viable paths. You seemed very much into split techs instead of simple linear tech paths so I don't know why you are so against the idea.

3 Jan 2021, 10:38 AM
#1157
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

You seemed very much into split techs instead of simple linear tech paths so I don't know why you are so against the idea.

Remember, when axis gets alternative tech buffed and made more appealing and readily available, its a long overdue change.
When allied faction gets the exact same treatment, its powercreep.
3 Jan 2021, 11:22 AM
#1158
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



PLS provide replay of bundle grenades "are enough of a justification to make Pgrens lategame" and explain why a similar grenade is not enough to make assault officer popular .



That's not what I said. I said Penals are balanced for tech and unit cost. When Volks get more expensive and cost 160mp in early game tech before you can make them you can make this dumb 1 squad v 1 squad argument again.

The might be balance "for cost" but they are not for timing. JLI at CP 0 where broken and where much better at CP1.

And again that simply strengths my point T1/Penal are simply badly designed.



If penals were overpowered but powercreeped by Conscripts, then logically either Soviets are super OP right now OR each faction has powercreeped to the point where they can stand up to the conscripts, which defacto makes penals UP in the here and now - the only time that matters. Since Soviets aren't winning any tournaments in the here and now I'm going to go with the second option.

Nope simply because PG had also to be buffed to compensate since the where also powered creeped and not being build.

The only think the WC2020 demonstrated was that Soviet had trouble dealing with Osttr, Soviet and Penal did just fine in WC1919 and Penal received no nerfs since then.


Your opinion that penals and conscripts cant co-exist is getting old. Soviet T1 and T2 are exclusive in the early/mid-game and offer different playstyles. There is no reason why they both can't be viable paths. You seemed very much into split techs instead of simple linear tech paths so I don't know why you are so against the idea.

This is not my opinion. Many users claim that going Penals leaves you without an AT grande and that building a conscripts for ATG grenade too expensive. There have been even post suggesting Penal should receive an AT snare and weapon upgrades. Even you think that Penal are not working and they need a grenade.

The current design of trying to make Penal carry Soviet if they go T1 and that is bad design. Buffing Penal will not solve nor it will increase the synergy with other infatry.
3 Jan 2021, 11:30 AM
#1159
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

Cons also get the benefit of commander abilities that are tailored just to them. Ppsh packages, hit the dirt, repair kit. These all can further give cons additional benefits, but penals are left without any such luxuries.

While in contrast simular abilities eith ostheer often affect both pgrens and grens. Penals get only ppdhs from airborne tactics as something they can use. Giving those abilities that give cons domething could be given some side effects for penals like new abilities. This however might be out of reach with game's lifespan, but also could have negative effects to balance, especially with commanders that have multiple of these abilities.
3 Jan 2021, 11:35 AM
#1160
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 11:22 AMVipper

The might be balance "for cost" but they are not for timing. JLI at CP 0 where broken and where much better at CP1.

And again that simply strengths my point T1/Penal are simply badly designed.

JLI never required you to pay extra 160mp and you could call them in the second game started, much, much earlier then penals and for much lower overall cost.

You might also have memory problems, because JLI have a powerful weapon upgrade that snipes models easily while penals have nothing.
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