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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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27 Nov 2020, 18:27 PM
#81
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2

Ppl complained that T34\76 is only good is for ram, while ram is beeing stupid ability. Now ppl complain that ram is behind vet1.

Realistically speaking, RAM right now is usable only to cheese it out with IL-2 bombinb\Strafe run. Other then that you are not gonna need or use ram on regular bases.

On the other hand ram+offmaps are batshit OP cheesing, and this is why RAM is being locked under vet1. At least players who want to cheese out heavy tanks, will be requared to play with t34 a bit before they can do it.


Battering ram is a stupid ability, to move a ram for veterancy is even more stupid ability. This decision does not improve the T-34, but simply ... breaks it. Who the hell came up with this solution? This is a nomination for the most ingenious idea of the year. T-34-76 and T-34-85 are long overdue for a change in veterancy and ability. But instead, let's just forget about it and pretend that we fixed something.
27 Nov 2020, 18:43 PM
#82
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1



Battering ram is a stupid ability, to move a ram for veterancy is even more stupid ability. This decision does not improve the T-34, but simply ... breaks it. Who the hell came up with this solution? This is a nomination for the most ingenious idea of the year. T-34-76 and T-34-85 are long overdue for a change in veterancy and ability. But instead, let's just forget about it and pretend that we fixed something.


Well its either requare:

1) Complete rethinking
2) Completly new ability

Right now, as it is, this solution while being controversial and strange looking, its the only one easy and realistic option to fix ram+offmap cheesing.

I belive if someone will bring better idea what to do with it, rather then discussing "why ram locked behind vet sounds stupid" it will be much more productive.

Also on a side note, ram never was T34 selling point. Its selling point is cost and pop-cap. People locked themself in a vision that T34 can be used only when paired with offmap on heavys ass.
27 Nov 2020, 19:54 PM
#83
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 608

I am not a fan of the Ram changes but most Vet 1 abilities are lackluster and are in need of a overhaul (would require a Veterancy Overhaul)

The whole idea behind Veterancy in Company of Heroes is Unit Preservation. You preserve your unit and keep it alive and with experience it gets better/stronger.

Ram being the suicide ability that it is kind of defeats the purpose of veterancy if it is locked behind Vet 1.


Ideally what Soviets need is a Doctrine System (Think British Hammer and Anvil) where choosing a doctrine would grant different Vet 1 abilities (Scorched Earth for example would grant Ram in its current form for example while Soviet Industry would grant tanks the ability to capture points) Though something like this would most likely require an expansion of sorts to get through.

Anyway I would be in favor of Ram getting removed and Vet 1 being given something like +10% ac/de-celeration. Realistically people only use Ram to combine it with Off Map Abilities and something we could do without in favor if giving the T-34 some stats at Vet 1
27 Nov 2020, 19:57 PM
#84
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

What was purpose of SU-85 vet nerf? Only vehicles that benefit from that change are ones SU-85 was supposed to hardcounter (Kingtiger) or ones it already struggles with (Elefant/JT).

Balance team really thinks Ele/JT underpowered vs SU-85 and need moar buffs?
27 Nov 2020, 20:18 PM
#85
avatar of Cpl.Mackinnon

Posts: 12

Ppl complained that T34\76 is only good is for ram, while ram is beeing stupid ability. Now ppl complain that ram is behind vet1.

Realistically speaking, RAM right now is usable only to cheese it out with IL-2 bombinb\Strafe run. Other then that you are not gonna need or use ram on regular bases.

On the other hand ram+offmaps are batshit OP cheesing, and this is why RAM is being locked under vet1. At least players who want to cheese out heavy tanks, will be requared to play with t34 a bit before they can do it.


I might be wrong, but is ram+off map really that much of a game breaking, balance busting problem? It's pretty much the only solution vs jagdtiger and elefant in higher player counts than 1v1. Also, its very pricey. It's also kind of easy to dodge the ram. If you want to ram successfully, you have to sneak flank, because any frontal ram is sure to be countered with easy back up or even simple firepower will kill the tank before it connects (pak walls, and or medium tanks). I agree it's kind of cheezy, (we are talking about off maps after all), but the price you pay for that wipe is substantial.

I would definitely agree that overall it would probably be better to address T34/76 performance in some other way. Like others wisely suggested, getting rid of ram and replacing it with a useful ability could make the trick.
27 Nov 2020, 20:31 PM
#86
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

SU-76 should get 40 extra damage with vet, it can be even moved to vet3.
Mobility vet could be put on vet2 as a compensation.
Then vet requirements can be increased.
Puma now gets sight vet, so barrage vet can stay as in-flavor equivalent and no need to consider doing anything with it anymore.
That and only that will be consistent with puma.
27 Nov 2020, 20:41 PM
#87
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

i wanna point out that ML20 howitzer still has cooldown bug (it says 0 seconds remaining and stays there for a good amount of time) - please fix it in upcoming patch..

*hopefully maxim deathloop got fixed aswell
*please give kv1 some love - its horrible vs infantry..
*t34/85 still lackluster too
**after 7 years soviet medics are finally fixed (i guess) SeemsGood
*vet 1 ram is the worst thing ever, this explains it perfectly:
27 Nov 2020, 22:39 PM
#88
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1



I might be wrong, but is ram+off map really that much of a game breaking, balance busting problem? It's pretty much the only solution vs jagdtiger and elefant in higher player counts than 1v1. Also, its very pricey. It's also kind of easy to dodge the ram. If you want to ram successfully, you have to sneak flank, because any frontal ram is sure to be countered with easy back up or even simple firepower will kill the tank before it connects (pak walls, and or medium tanks). I agree it's kind of cheezy, (we are talking about off maps after all), but the price you pay for that wipe is substantial.

I would definitely agree that overall it would probably be better to address T34/76 performance in some other way. Like others wisely suggested, getting rid of ram and replacing it with a useful ability could make the trick.


Cant speak for 4v4, but in 3v3 and 2v2 its pretty easy to pull off. Not to mention that 90fuel+200muni isnt that much to take off Jaghttiger\KT\Ele considering in teamgames you can build caches and also float with muni.
27 Nov 2020, 23:02 PM
#89
avatar of Cpl.Mackinnon

Posts: 12

27 Nov 2020, 23:26 PM
#90
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

The t3476 performance is fine and the ram was the icing on the cake. I can completely agree with ram needing to be adjusted but I think it should at lease get heavy engine damage after ram.

I just dont agree for any vet unit to be doomed to die from its vet ability. The t3476 is still most likely dead but it should at lease have be it a very small chance to survive.

Ill add that the t3485 should get a different ability or for both t34 variants and rid ram for good.

28 Nov 2020, 01:43 AM
#91
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Alternative ram change could be making it a skill shot instead of homing at least then it requires more than a pair of clicks.
Additionally, make its effects depend on what it hits instead of RNG pen.

If it's going to locked behind vet it shouldnt be as debilitating

A bit of a tangent but if the t34 had better close pen maybe it would be worth more as a flanking tank than a battering ram against heavy Armour....

ALSO people call ram+off map cheese but... Like how else exactly is soviet supposed to kill an elefant or JT since their only TDs are casemate and will flat out lose against these big beasts...
28 Nov 2020, 01:43 AM
#92
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1896



Battering ram is a stupid ability, to move a ram for veterancy is even more stupid ability. This decision does not improve the T-34, but simply ... breaks it. Who the hell came up with this solution? This is a nomination for the most ingenious idea of the year. T-34-76 and T-34-85 are long overdue for a change in veterancy and ability. But instead, let's just forget about it and pretend that we fixed something.


The Russians did, back sometime around 1942. Speaking of which, if ram is going to be a vet 1 ability, could it be made to act more like the historical event? It would be interesting if the ram had a chance to immobilize both vehicles or turret lock both (when the T34 climbs part way up the other vehicle). It could make for some interesting play/counterplay. Those abilities would have to be limited to Panther's and below. Any larger target should just have a chance to stun.
28 Nov 2020, 04:55 AM
#93
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

The t3476 performance is fine and the ram was the icing on the cake..


Again the T34 takes more fuel/comes later than the first panzer 4 and is less efficient when massed than the panzer 4....
28 Nov 2020, 05:11 AM
#94
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 132

Combat Engineers, and Maxim - Nice changes to see. Although none of these changes are massive in their impact. Good QoL changes but they won't be significant in changing how the SU plays/preforms.

Zis-3 - A minor nerf that hurts to see. It may be more fair in general but as seen further down so many nerfs are gonna stack on top of each other and their just isn't enough compensation for the SU. I think changes like this would be fine if more impactful buffs came alongside it.

Special Rifle Command M3 Scout Car - So the M3 change is the smallest of these changes and is nice to see. The T1 building be built quicker also is a good buff as it lets a faster M3 come out and start harassing sooner. Although the impact of that is debatable since it really would only amplify it's power against okw and do little against ostheer.

Penals - Would put them with the above 2 but I think these changes need more focus. The changes to penals are solid buffs to the unit and make them better in general but they don't solve the issues penals (and T1 openings in general) have. The 2 main problems penals have is a lack of good AT and lacking late game. Without 1 those Penal buffs won't accomplish much in changing how T1 openings in general happen. Granted these buffs are nice to see and do make it easier to use penals but it isn't fixing core problems that they have. Something along the lines of letting the AT grenade be useable by both conscripts and penals would be fantastic buff. If that isn't possible something else to give penals an actual snare (sticky satchel doesn't count because of range). For the late game idk something like let them get a DP28 or maybe let them upgrade to SVTs? No matter what a buff needs to address 1 of those 2 issues as otherwise the buffs won't change much in terms of penals.

M5 Halftrack - If this has to happen then some other buff should really be given to this unit to compensate. This unit already struggles to find use since it's locked in tier 3 and making the AA much worse makes it even less appealing. The exact change? I'm not sure maybe this could get a cost reduction now or a faster build/upgrade time? It's very hard to justify this in place of the T70.Z

SU76 - These buffs seem fine overall. Although another small buff might help as it's in that grey area between bad and very good. I saw some suggestions was for a late vet penetration buff so maybe that could be worth trying out?

T70 - A deserved nerf for an overperforming unit. However with how hard the Soviets crutch on this unit as their midgame and any nerfs to that can have massive drawbacks. The change itself is fine but this needs to come alongside stuff to make up for it (and I don't think that has been accomplished)

T34 Ram - So this is both a massive nerf to the ability but also a warranted change. Ram is an ability that is either lackluster or broken depending on if you have a call in or not. It's fine to make this change but as with many changes for the soviets there needs to be a compensation. The T34 is a lackluster medium and even though it's the cheapest you also have to put more effort into supporting it since it never wins a tank v tank fight. Why not change the ram into something like combat blitz so the T34 could get the flank on stronger tanks? Maybe to big a change though. No matter what something should probably get a buff alongside this.

Katyusha and SU85 - These nerfs seem a bit unneeded. The panzerwerfer essentially gets the best parts of katy after the standardization while also having the slower but much harder hitting barrage. Meanwhile the SU85 nerfs is not needed in the slightest. This literally just makes it worse against Heavy TDs from the axis but those things are already tough to crack. This seems like it just nerfs the Soviets to have worse late game in larger team games and that is on top of the ISU nerfs.

ISU152 - Fine changes that were needed

Overall I think many of these changes do work but there is a sever lack of buffs that compensate the nerfs. As it is I think the nerfs would seriously weaken the Soviet Union which already has been struggling in the meta. I hope more buffs can be added on to various units to better match the nerfs that would happen.
28 Nov 2020, 06:19 AM
#95
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 04:55 AMgbem


Again the T34 takes more fuel/comes later than the first panzer 4 and is less efficient when massed than the panzer 4....


Its early version of the patch but I dont think the vet ram is going to change through. If ram isnt (likely) going to be replaced then I would give it heavy engine damage or increase the t3476s close pen to encourage getting in close.

This could make ram work as the t3476 vets quick, ram could be access while in range to finish off a target. This also makes the 76 more of a threat to unsupported lone tanks.
28 Nov 2020, 07:26 AM
#96
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 01:43 AMGrumpy


The Russians did, back sometime around 1942. Speaking of which, if ram is going to be a vet 1 ability, could it be made to act more like the historical event? It would be interesting if the ram had a chance to immobilize both vehicles or turret lock both (when the T34 climbs part way up the other vehicle). It could make for some interesting play/counterplay. Those abilities would have to be limited to Panther's and below. Any larger target should just have a chance to stun.


If you dig up some information, you will find out that the ram was used Not only by the Soviets on. So it is with the British and even the Germans. Ram, not patented by the Soviets and used only by the Soviets. The ram would be used on tanks like the IS-2 and Tiger 2. Let's give them a ram.
28 Nov 2020, 08:59 AM
#97
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

Could make Ram ability doctrinal to stop it from being used with offmaps.
28 Nov 2020, 09:00 AM
#98
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Could make Ram ability doctrinal to stop it from being used with offmaps.


ram and T-34-76s are useless without offmaps though
28 Nov 2020, 09:25 AM
#99
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738

is su76 barrage getting the same rof nerf?

imo even at 3, it is still too fast. make it 4 for both or 3.5.
28 Nov 2020, 09:34 AM
#100
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 09:25 AMmrgame2
is su76 barrage getting the same rof nerf?

imo even at 3, it is still too fast. make it 4 for both or 3.5.


Sure, some more nerfs are needed for literally the worst unit in SOV roster.
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