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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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17 Dec 2020, 05:40 AM
#241
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2020, 15:50 PMVipper

Why are you asking me?
I have not suggested that Elefant should have 60 range HE rounds.


Perhaps he wants the T-34 to have a 100% chance to penetrate the rear from mid-range, a benefit now enjoyed by the Panzer IV?
17 Dec 2020, 13:14 PM
#242
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Simple cause the alternatives were stronger. Either OKW was better (pre nerf JLI/Falls) or you were forced to play a Tiger doctrine (or as usual an ELE doctrine on teamgames).

The moment Tigers are not mandatory to counter IS2/Pershings, OH went back into using Ostruppen doctrines + other infantry based ones.

T4/late game buffs means less reliance on doctrinal options for that period of the game.

M8 I know that's the case. I'm just saying the FACT THAT 5 MAN GREN IS OP WAS NOT ALL THAT APPARANT.
17 Dec 2020, 13:27 PM
#243
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


M8 I know that's the case. I'm just saying the FACT THAT 5 MAN GREN IS OP WAS NOT ALL THAT APPARANT.

Again, it was and again, there was something even stronger that everyone used.
That's all.
That's how meta works.
It doesn't matter that X is too strong when Y is even stronger, as long as Y will not be nerfed, X will not take the #1 OP spot and highlight itself in obvious place.
17 Dec 2020, 14:03 PM
#244
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

According to new patch preview:

I highly recommend to increase 222's armor or, at least, give it an armor upgrade same as M20 utility car has.

Reason:
With the new Vickers Vet 1 ability, almost every MG is now capable of dealing with light vehicles. On top of that, Soviets are getting better infantry AT with new Penals with PTRS. For Wehrmacht, the only faction having no light tanks, this is a huge disadvantage in game.
There is absolutely no need for allies any more to get an AT gun in midgame or any other AT wepaons, cause there are enough soft counters on field. Even right now without those changes Armored Cars are having problems to fight Bren/Bar blobs, cause of their high damage.

And please remember, 222s are no T70s or Luchs...they are less potent which means, a better armor won't OP them! Please keep this in mind.


And don't misread my post: Vicekers and Penal PTRS buffs are absolutely fine! I appreciate them. But I fear Wehr will get big troubles until P4 or Ostwind arrive, which mabye come too late...
17 Dec 2020, 18:02 PM
#245
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

According to new patch preview:

I highly recommend to increase 222's armor or, at least, give it an armor upgrade same as M20 utility car has.

Reason:
With the new Vickers Vet 1 ability, almost every MG is now capable of dealing with light vehicles. On top of that, Soviets are getting better infantry AT with new Penals with PTRS. For Wehrmacht, the only faction having no light tanks, this is a huge disadvantage in game.
There is absolutely no need for allies any more to get an AT gun in midgame or any other AT wepaons, cause there are enough soft counters on field. Even right now without those changes Armored Cars are having problems to fight Bren/Bar blobs, cause of their high damage.

And please remember, 222s are no T70s or Luchs...they are less potent which means, a better armor won't OP them! Please keep this in mind.


And don't misread my post: Vicekers and Penal PTRS buffs are absolutely fine! I appreciate them. But I fear Wehr will get big troubles until P4 or Ostwind arrive, which mabye come too late...


222 still is the strongest light vehicles in early game(3-5 minutes).
It need 3 shot from AT or 7-8 shot by T70 or 4x Ptrs salvo to take down.
Its survivalbilty and HP are already good enough.
222 do have a auto cannon that can chase and kill other early vehicles include m20.
17 Dec 2020, 18:44 PM
#246
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 18:02 PMvgfgff


222 still is the strongest light vehicles in early game(3-5 minutes).
It need 3 shot from AT or 7-8 shot by T70 or 4x Ptrs salvo to take down.
Its survivalbilty and HP are already good enough.
222 do have a auto cannon that can chase and kill other early vehicles include m20.


Sorry but I doubt you have ever played with 222.

- 222 needs 2 AT gun shots to get destroyed. Only with Vet3 it gets some additional HP to survive 2nd gun shot
- fastest build is 4:40 minutes. (good fuel income, T1 skip)
- Autocannon has pretty low penetration of 35 (vs. AEC 63%, T70 50%, Stuart 44%) with very low damage of 20


It's by far not the strongest LV in early game. You can deal with it with every squad because all weapons can penetrate its armor. And the only LVs you can "chase and kill" are Soviet clown car, Universal Carrier, WC51, M20 and all Halftracks.

But you go high risk if you try to kill USF Flak HT or Soviet ZSU. Most of the times, you loose your 222.

In conclusion, learn your facts.
17 Dec 2020, 19:01 PM
#247
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1227



Sorry but I doubt you have ever played with 222.

- 222 needs 2 AT gun shots to get destroyed. Only with Vet3 it gets some additional HP to survive 2nd gun shot
- fastest build is 4:40 minutes. (good fuel income, T1 skip)
- Autocannon has pretty low penetration of 35 (vs. AEC 63%, T70 50%, Stuart 44%) with very low damage of 20


It's by far not the strongest LV in early game. You can deal with it with every squad because all weapons can penetrate its armor. And the only LVs you can "chase and kill" are Soviet clown car, Universal Carrier, WC51, M20 and all Halftracks.

But you go high risk if you try to kill USF Flak HT or Soviet ZSU. Most of the times, you loose your 222.

In conclusion, learn your facts.


He means light vehicles and not light tanks. The 222 counters all scout cars with ease, its the top dog in that catagory. Light tanks counter it as they are the next tier/phase.
17 Dec 2020, 19:11 PM
#248
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

Sorry, but that's exactly my point: Wehrmacht has 0 light tanks. They only have this scout car, which has do deal vs. LV AND LT.

And as I said, you have to look at this in reference to the new balance patch: Better AT squads for Svoiets and better Vickers for Brits. Both can easily counter 222.
17 Dec 2020, 19:29 PM
#249
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 132

The Panzerfaust is the longest-ranged snare in the game, the Panzerschreck is the best handheld AT in the game, and it's available in the same tier as the Pak which is a good AT gun with debatably the best veteran ability in the game (for an AT gun). The Wehrmacht does not lack for options in dealing with light tanks.
17 Dec 2020, 19:38 PM
#250
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1227

Sorry, but that's exactly my point: Wehrmacht has 0 light tanks. They only have this scout car, which has do deal vs. LV AND LT.

And as I said, you have to look at this in reference to the new balance patch: Better AT squads for Svoiets and better Vickers for Brits. Both can easily counter 222.


Wher doesnt have light tanks but they get the strongest at mine(s) the strongest lv flamer, strong hh at, very strong ap rounds on mg42, a pak that can stun with vet, even the sniper can stun lv apprently, and the top dog of scout cars. Ost dont need a light tank, they got plenty of good at options, just not a light tank.

17 Dec 2020, 20:15 PM
#251
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

In light of recent buffs to all T4 related units, maybe its time to consider making gren reinforce cost reduction a side tech as well?

T4 is much more easily transition-able then it ever was and all of the units are extremely good at what they do unless someone uses them terribly wrong.

I do not see much of a reason for further free incentive to transition into T4 or just straight go for it, because nowadays it simply is too good to pass on, especially 2v2 and up.
17 Dec 2020, 21:16 PM
#252
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 679 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 20:15 PMKatitof
In light of recent buffs to all T4 related units, maybe its time to consider making gren reinforce cost reduction a side tech as well?

T4 is much more easily transition-able then it ever was and all of the units are extremely good at what they do unless someone uses them terribly wrong.

I do not see much of a reason for further free incentive to transition into T4 or just straight go for it, because nowadays it simply is too good to pass on, especially 2v2 and up.


Gren reinforce cost buff is insignificant. It's a complete fluff feature. If you make it a sidetech with any kind of significant cost it's just gonna be pointless. I mean either way it's pointless so might as well put it behind an upgrade lol
17 Dec 2020, 21:20 PM
#253
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:16 PMGiaA


Gren reinforce cost buff is insignificant. It's a complete fluff feature. If you make it a sidetech with any kind of significant cost it's just gonna be pointless. I mean either way it's pointless so might as well put it behind an upgrade lol

Then give it insignificant manpower and fuel cost.
There is no reason why it should be free anymore.
17 Dec 2020, 21:49 PM
#254
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 679 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:20 PMKatitof

Then give it insignificant manpower and fuel cost.
There is no reason why it should be free anymore.


Way too convoluted to put something this minor behind an upgrade. Once again this logic of "faction x has something, so other factions deserve the same" leads nowhere. Tackle the actual issues the factions have (e.g. Brummbär) instead of using these utterly pointless forum warrior arguments derailing every single thread.
17 Dec 2020, 22:25 PM
#255
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 21:49 PMGiaA


Way too convoluted to put something this minor behind an upgrade.

molitov has entered the chat

but for real, the vet 3 damage reduction thats designed to make grens not evaporate instantly in the late game should be coupled with the mp reduction with tech not vet. it could still be unlocked at t4 but we need to stop pretnending that t4 is an alternative to t3 and make it a premium tier once again. treat it somewhat like hammer/anvil where you get it for late game buffs. if it provides more than just units then it can actually be worth getting if the player plans on t3 units.

i have no idea how something as cut and dried as a battle phase teching with 7 levels of tech could be mishandled so poorly but here we are. each building should offer something to make them attractive despite the units within, battle phase escalations should improve the units in the tier before to promote fully teching and FEELING like a damn escalation of power.

imagine the old ost tech costs, but teching battlephase 3 grants stugs and p4 skirts as a global passive and the ostwind better AA? well now you are already part way to t4 and even if youll never afford that panther, building the building itself will make your infantry tougher and stem some bleed... well now the game HAS dragged on and you lost your vetted p4, you have been floating a bit of fuel, you might as well bring out the panther because they are pumping out tanks like a soviet factory. already have enough AT? that brumbar will round out your army and force the enemy to concentrate assets to keep their infantry alive.

making each step attractive beyond the unit makes teching up rewarded and more of a struggle to decide if its worth missing out on bonuses to race out faster units.
18 Dec 2020, 04:53 AM
#256
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1735



Sorry but I doubt you have ever played with 222.

- 222 needs 2 AT gun shots to get destroyed. Only with Vet3 it gets some additional HP to survive 2nd gun shot
- fastest build is 4:40 minutes. (good fuel income, T1 skip)
- Autocannon has pretty low penetration of 35 (vs. AEC 63%, T70 50%, Stuart 44%) with very low damage of 20


It's by far not the strongest LV in early game. You can deal with it with every squad because all weapons can penetrate its armor. And the only LVs you can "chase and kill" are Soviet clown car, Universal Carrier, WC51, M20 and all Halftracks.

But you go high risk if you try to kill USF Flak HT or Soviet ZSU. Most of the times, you loose your 222.

In conclusion, learn your facts.


agree, 222 needs some love.
i suggest move vet3 hp to vet2 and give vet3 some new timed recon ability with muni required.
18 Dec 2020, 07:27 AM
#257
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 20:15 PMKatitof
In light of recent buffs to all T4 related units, maybe its time to consider making gren reinforce cost reduction a side tech as well?

T4 is much more easily transition-able then it ever was and all of the units are extremely good at what they do unless someone uses them terribly wrong.

I do not see much of a reason for further free incentive to transition into T4 or just straight go for it, because nowadays it simply is too good to pass on, especially 2v2 and up.

Here is something I don't get. Side techs in this game(comparing to coh1) are really trivial cost wise. I don't really how they are even significantly impactful to the game. The community has literally patched out any semblance of risk associated with teching and side teching(for wehr it would be tech skipping) long ago to the point side tech doesn't even serve it's main design purpose anymore. So please elaborate what is all the hangup with whole side tech is the spawn of the devil mentality. I just don't get it. You want the gren upgrade to be side tech fine explain how that will balance or change the dynamics of the game(and better not be the player now has to actively think about it)
18 Dec 2020, 16:33 PM
#258
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Dec 2020, 04:53 AMmrgame2


agree, 222 needs some love.
i suggest move vet3 hp to vet2 and give vet3 some new timed recon ability with muni required.

give it a durability buff with battle phase 2. immunity to small arms and a bit more health
18 Dec 2020, 17:11 PM
#259
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Here is something I don't get. Side techs in this game(comparing to coh1) are really trivial cost wise. I don't really how they are even significantly impactful to the game. The community has literally patched out any semblance of risk associated with teching and side teching(for wehr it would be tech skipping) long ago to the point side tech doesn't even serve it's main design purpose anymore. So please elaborate what is all the hangup with whole side tech is the spawn of the devil mentality. I just don't get it. You want the gren upgrade to be side tech fine explain how that will balance or change the dynamics of the game(and better not be the player now has to actively think about it)


Cause he is trying to apply the same (bad changes) logic which is been applied at the moment to Soviets.
18 Dec 2020, 18:34 PM
#260
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 934 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Dec 2020, 20:15 PMKatitof
In light of recent buffs to all T4 related units, maybe its time to consider making gren reinforce cost reduction a side tech as well?

Who cares. Grens with or without reinforcement cost will be wiped by tanks\inderect fire units or WFA bloobs of doom.


Cause he is trying to apply the same (bad changes) logic which is been applied at the moment to Soviets.

Maybe you can eliborate, why you think that faster Reserves are somehow a bad change? 20 fuel and 100MP is a joke of amount, by the time of T3.

Controlling your fuel point and a bit less then half of the map, gives you ~20 fuel income already, at worst case your T70\T4 will be delayed by 1 minute, if you get MR asap. Considering skipping molotov, delay will be 30 seconds. Add to the fact that you might have had enemy fuel aswell for some time and you can get them even faster.
And this is in 1v1 where points are constantly being capped and de-capped, in any teamgames new MR is a flat buff, because you will be able to always get them faster in any condition then in live.

Compare it to the delay you will get in live if you decide to get MR in T3 or compare it to the delay of getting it for free from T4.
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