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[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

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27 Nov 2020, 18:43 PM
#41
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13272 | Subs: 1


... Of course, you can't barrage an incoming blob ..


That is incorrect, one can barrage an incoming blob with the Scott.
27 Nov 2020, 18:47 PM
#42
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201



The barrage is receiving a big net buff to its AOE and accuracy (scatter). This should make it a lot more effective against support weapons or other static defences from long range. The goal of these changes is to move the unit's performance from autofire more towards player input without decreasing the overall power level.

I would like to ask if there is any chance to make Scott barrage range 140 or something like that
27 Nov 2020, 19:38 PM
#43
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 643


It does a lot more than blob control. Currently (in live) it can afk snipe models at 60 range from behind the safety of ATGs and Jacksons, barely requiring any player input, causing very high manpower damage and wipes to singular infantry squads. This is hideous to play against. This is being addressed by pushing the power of the unit more towards the barrage.



I'm thinking about reducing scatter by another 1-2 range and giving the barrage an extra shell. That should be enough to reliably force away or even kill team weapons or stationary infantry squads with a single barrage.



" from behind the safety of ATGs and Jacksons"

Both M8 Scots and Jacksons do not have 60 vision. If M8 Scott is shooting at 60 range, then that means you have Infantry in the front line scouting for these units. Combined Arms is what Company of Heroes is all about. Also for 10 more fuel Soviets and Whermacht have access to the Katyusha and Panzerwerfer which also will sit behind ATGs and Panthers/Su-85 (not to mention mines which USF does not have by default unless you make M20 or choose a Doctrine) and also these units can wipe out multiple squads if lucky. If the M8 Scott gets lucky at most you will get 1 model kill. This is why a Single M8 Scott is useless and you need like 3 of them just to be able to inflict the manpower bleed 1 Panzerwerfer or Katyusha will do in a single game.


The M8 Scott costs 75 Fuel but performs worse than the Pak Howitzer. The only advantage the M8 Scott had vs Pak Howitzer is that you didn't have to worry about manpower bleed (due to being a vehicle obviously)
from OKW Stuka Barrages. However...

"251 'Walking Stuka' Rocket Half-Track

Adjustments have been made to the Stuka Half-Track to improve its consistency against armoured vehicles. "

M8 Scott will probably get countered by that too making this unit dead.

If people are upset over combined arms from a units who doesn't know if it wants to be a bootleg brumbar that is less effective than a T-70 or artillery piece due to its identity crisis and lack of clear role then the barrage needs some significant buffs. As it stands now the M8 Scot ain't it and is a waste of fuel in this state.
27 Nov 2020, 22:24 PM
#44
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13272 | Subs: 1

M2HB 50cal

Move AP round to Vet 1 there is little reason for them to vet 0 with changes to tech.

M20

Allow the unit to be built with LT only, lower Armor values but lock skirt behind.


Pack Howitzer

The heat barrage is simply OP and far superior to any equivalent replace some less strong and lower XP value.

Reduce damage to ambient buildings it can take a building with 1-2 shots (same goes for zis/Su-76)

This unis arrive too early replace with mortar without needing tech in CT and move to major.

Major
Remove smoke grenade or have it in shared CD with barrage

Swap the reckon flight with a use of binoculars providing tunnel vision, planes that provide vision to enemy for off map should not be available (same goes for UKF officer)

M8 Scott
Remove the defensive smoke the unit has allot of range and does need stock defensive smoke.

M36 Jackson

Revert the acceleration buff the unit does need such high mobility
lower the accuracy once vetted:

The values are way to high 0.065/0.0585/0.0455 AP 0.078/0.065/0.052
0.052 is 104% chance to hit pzIV from range 60!!!


WC 51

Remove the crew the unit is way too cheap to provide both a vehicle and crew

Remove the artillery barrage the commander already is overloaded with abilities and with sight of 50/60 the unit can easily navigate the battle fiend and call arty from a safe distance

Lower speed and acceleration 9.4 and 3.5 are way to high, add mu cost to step on it or make mark target the vet 1 ability

Change vet bonus to reduce pop with vet bonus

Allow the unit to be "refitted" for m3

LT
Grenades now share CD

CT

Now has access to grenades
27 Nov 2020, 23:57 PM
#45
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13272 | Subs: 1

Major at vet 1 now has to planes coming from the similar direction if they are called from enemy base.

The ability to call planes originating from enemy base is bad to begin with.

Since you have re introduces the AA mode for AAHT when in that mode have the gun elevated so that the turret can do a full 360 turn without hitting on cabin so that vehicle does not have to rotate to engage air planes. That should allow the unit to fire in full potential (it might even prove too good.)
28 Nov 2020, 06:21 AM
#46
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1217

locking rifleman snare behind 2 officer or a full base building may turn out to be too late, USF may have to play 5-6 minute early game without snare, which can be dangerous again flame HT rush.

why cant it just be lock behind the grenades tech with the cost back to 15 fu ?
28 Nov 2020, 06:26 AM
#47
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593

locking rifleman snare behind 2 officer or a full base building may turn out to be too late, USF may have to play 5-6 minute early game without snare, which can be dangerous again flame HT rush.

why cant it just be lock behind the grenades tech with the cost back to 15 fu ?


Yes changing the grenade snare vet 1 ability is going to cause a very big early game problem for USF. Bad move.

Also how is the Scott OP? If you can micro it, its OP, like DevM, but that doesn't make it OP, it gets killed pretty easily and this nerf will overshadow it by Sherman.

Pack Howitzer is important for the USF since USF doesn't have strong artillery.
28 Nov 2020, 07:56 AM
#48
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Make the snare unlocked via grenade tech OR vet 1 with vet 1 providing the current cost and grenade tech current +10mu or something. Then it can be rushed if needed, but still held out for if not.
28 Nov 2020, 08:53 AM
#49
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 179

Snare is going to cost something one way or another. Its vet, upgrade, or tech locked for just about everyone. Trading early game availability for late game reliability a fair trade.

More serious is all of the nerfs USF is receiving to its anti infantry capabilities. Outside of the deserved nerf to the WC51, the 50 Cal, Pack Howie, and Scott are all getting monster nerfs. I legit don't see how USF is expected to kill elite infantry or break entrenched positions if these go through.
28 Nov 2020, 08:59 AM
#50
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Both M8 Scots and Jacksons do not have 60 vision. If M8 Scott is shooting at 60 range, then that means you have Infantry in the front line scouting for these units. Combined Arms is what Company of Heroes is all about.


It's not about combined arms itself, it's about Scotts being too hard to counter because ATGs can't reach them and tanks can't dive them when they're firing at infantry from 60 range with ATGs/Jacksons in support. The Brummbar got its range nerfed for the same issue.
28 Nov 2020, 09:23 AM
#51
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

i suggest pak howie to be easily destroyed by tank shots, make the profile like land mattress, and let pak howie be destroyed in 2 hits by diving tanks.

at least if we dont nerf its attack, let it die faster
28 Nov 2020, 10:05 AM
#52
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Regarding the Scott, if the problem is autofire sniping units from behind AT Gun walls, then why don't you just reduce the range of it? You could even let it have a fairly average rate of fire but 40 range. It'd be effective at direct-fire without being a passive unreachable manpower bleeder.
28 Nov 2020, 10:15 AM
#53
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

Regarding the Scott, if the problem is autofire sniping units from behind AT Gun walls, then why don't you just reduce the range of it? You could even let it have a fairly average rate of fire but 40 range. It'd be effective at direct-fire without being a passive unreachable manpower bleeder.


That's literally what has been done.
28 Nov 2020, 11:03 AM
#54
avatar of vonAsten

Posts: 462 | Subs: 4

Jackson will still be OP. 2 jacksons easily deal with all kinds of axis armour. Almost completely denying axis armoured play. In combination with crew repair makes USF lategame too strong.

USF crews will still be so broken.. Its really unbalanced if you compare it to axis repair speed. Imo USF crew repair rate should get a nerf for sure.

WC-51 will still be OP. Meta wont change at all with this patch.

The bad side of usf, I think is their infantry bleed. Rifles seem to bleed way more than other basic infantry. Especially in the early game. This is also because of the way rifles are used, but they die easier than other basic infantry and cost relatively much to reinforce compared to other basic infantry.

28 Nov 2020, 15:27 PM
#55
avatar of Phoenix101

Posts: 63


Ambulance
BUFF

M1918 BAR
BUFF

Rear Echelon
BUFF
slight Nerf


Riflemen
BUFF

M1 81mm Mortar
BUFF

M2HB 50cal
NERF
BUFF


M20
BUFF
BUFF

M5 Stuart
BUFF
BUFF
BUFF
Slight NERF


Pack Howitzer
NERF (amaze...)

Major
BUFF

M8 Scott
BUFF
BUFF
NERF
BUFF
BUFF
NERF


M36 Jackson
NERF

WC 51
NERF
BUFF


Calliope
-




92% buffs

Verdict^
CHRONIC ALLIED FANBOYISM
28 Nov 2020, 16:38 PM
#56
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 1

I would urge the balance team to look at the Pak Howies autofire accuracy. I understand that the autofire accuracy was reduced in a previous patch and that the current autofire accuracy is less accurate than the barrage, but after extensive testing on my own with a variety of indirect fire units (done in the patch mod) it still seems that the pak howies autofire accuracy needs to be toned down slightly.

At a minimum I would urge the balance team to test this change out and come to their own conclusion before ignoring this unit.

Cheers guys, great work thus far!
28 Nov 2020, 16:59 PM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13272 | Subs: 1

... but after extensive testing on my own ...
Did you happen to also test the "HEAT" barrage?
28 Nov 2020, 17:26 PM
#58
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



Yes changing the grenade snare vet 1 ability is going to cause a very big early game problem for USF. Bad move.

Also how is the Scott OP? If you can micro it, its OP, like DevM, but that doesn't make it OP, it gets killed pretty easily and this nerf will overshadow it by Sherman.

Pack Howitzer is important for the USF since USF doesn't have strong artillery.


I don't even know where to start.

First of all, USF will get the snare after unlocking LT or CPT which costs a total of 35 fuel, and considering you have 20 fuel as a starting resource you can get LT or CPT as your 3rd unit if you want to. WHICH axis vehicle is the problem in this time frame? Kübelwagen? 222 and Flame HT comes after you get a officer and the 221 arrives at the same time if not later. Please elaborate the "very big early game problem" USF will have with the snare change. This change is a straight BUFF btw. Not sure why you would complain about a buff to the faction you main.

Scott is OP for obvious reasons. It has 400 HP + smoke + range + can shoot over buildings which makes it next to uncounterable unless you make extremely risky dives or have Elefant ready to counter it on open maps where it cant hide behind shot blockers. Just a braindead unit as it currently is.

Pak Howitzer is batshit OP compared to Leig or any other mortar and nerfing it is a no-brainer which basically anyone that plays more than one faction agrees about.

28 Nov 2020, 17:56 PM
#59
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1217



I don't even know where to start.

First of all, USF will get the snare after unlocking LT or CPT which costs a total of 35 fuel, and considering you have 20 fuel as a starting resource you can get LT or CPT as your 3rd unit if you want to. WHICH axis vehicle is the problem in this time frame? Kübelwagen? 222 and Flame HT comes after you get a officer and the 221 arrives at the same time if not later. Please elaborate the "very big early game problem" USF will have with the snare change. This change is a straight BUFF btw. Not sure why you would complain about a buff to the faction you main.



Im assuming you had a misunderstand here. The new requirements for rifleman snare is BOTH officer or a FULLY unlock platoon/company cp. Which mean, the fastest way to snare will be LT/CPT into mechanized platoon/company cp wahich cost 35+20=55 fuels. I tested it myself, with average early game income and current teching time, the sane is available at 4 minute mark if rush, but it is only when go straight đo the mechanized unlock, meaning no nade, no ambulance, no weapons rack. We all know that that usf without ambu and/or rack/nade 6 minute into the game is very close to suicidal. Take any two of those side techs into account and rifleman snare can be easily delay upto minute 6/7, meaning there can be a couple of minute of free roam for Flame HT. Thing will only get worse if someone decide to go both officer, which will make snare available at 70 fuels and event with a longer teching time, and that still without ambu and nade/rack.

Seriously, why cant you just bundled the at nade with the nade tech ??? Will it suddenly make usf broken or what ? why wasting time in trying this unrealistic double requirements stuff ? The nade tech itself can be increased to 20 fuels or require 1 officer to be able to research if it make pp happy, and still, it will be much better than current.
28 Nov 2020, 18:11 PM
#60
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



Im assuming you had a misunderstand here. The new requirements for rifleman snare is BOTH officer or a FULLY unlock platoon/company cp. Which mean, the fastest way to snare will be LT/CPT into mechanized platoon/company cp wahich cost 35+20=55 fuels. I tested it myself, with average early game income and current teching time, the sane is available at 4 minute mark if rush, but it is only when go straight đo the mechanized unlock, meaning no nade, no ambulance, no weapons rack. We all know that that usf without ambu and/or rack/nade 6 minute into the game is very close to suicidal. Take any two of those side techs into account and rifleman snare can be easily delay upto minute 6/7, meaning there can be a couple of minute of free roam for Flame HT. Thing will only get worse if someone decide to go both officer, which will make snare available at 70 fuels and event with a longer teching time, and that still without ambu and nade/rack.

Seriously, why cant you just bundled the at nade with the nade tech ??? Will it suddenly make usf broken or what ? why wasting time in trying this unrealistic double requirements stuff ? The nade tech itself can be increased to 20 fuels or require 1 officer to be able to research if it make pp happy, and still, it will be much better than current.


Didn't read the notes properly. It still takes only 55 fuel to get it then while Ost 222 and Flame HT costs 90 fuel (in live, if they keep the current changes even more), OKW Luchs 120 fuel and Puma 130.

The only difference it will make is Kübelwagen and maybe 221 for a minute. I don't see that as a big problem.

So yes, you can get ambulance + snares in time before vehicles arrive. No one gets weapon racks within the first five minutes btw. Not sure why you would even entertain the thought considering you don't have the munitions for more than 1-2 bars and you can invest those into a zook for LT or Bar for CPT even without weapon racks.

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