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[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

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5 Dec 2020, 01:53 AM
#341
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1896



It wasn't considered moving. It's at like 15ish range, maybe 18. But at that range it shouldn't miss that.


The Panther has 6% at close range. The Katy's size is 20, so I'm pretty sure that means it has a 120% chance to hit. It looked like you purposely stopped the Panther so I'd vote for bug in this case.

The Jackson, SU-85, and ISU nerfs are really going to hurt the allies late game, on a patch where it didn't seem unbalanced.

A lot of times the Panther does seem mediocre for its price, but I think I'd rather have a buff to its MG's.
5 Dec 2020, 01:56 AM
#342
avatar of Latch

Posts: 768


Churchill was moving tho panther was not

at gun was max range not close


AT gun was max range!?! lol 17 seconds in, you call that max range? Nice to see your biases are still stronk!
5 Dec 2020, 07:19 AM
#344
avatar of Lemethy

Posts: 21

The minor panther buff will not change the game alot. Becouse they compensate with firefly rotation speed, the isu range nerf is nothing either becouse they compensate with a 1000 pen round. The Isu doesnt need a 70 range AI cannon. It is really cheesy and sovjet players must agree to this.
Imagine a Jagdtiger with 70 range Ai cannon of doom that almost wipes whole squads att 70 range 0.o
the forums wouöd be blown with nerf threads
5 Dec 2020, 07:47 AM
#345
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Bug or it was considered still moving? Cause static it should not miss at that range since it has way over 100% acc.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2020, 01:53 AMGrumpy
The Panther has 6% at close range. The Katy's size is 20, so I'm pretty sure that means it has a 120% chance to hit. It looked like you purposely stopped the Panther so I'd vote for bug in this case.


Against a Katyusha (20 TS), the Panther has 100% accuracy only up to about 17 range. The range in the video is around 20, so there is a very small chance (0-10% up to 25 range) to miss.
5 Dec 2020, 08:28 AM
#346
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1239

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2020, 23:33 PMVipper

Again call it what ever you want, it does not make any difference. Panther is still a vehicles designed to counter enemy vehicles.


I do not, but heavy crash is available to other vehicles like the Comet and it also "available" to UKF engineers for free with the destroy cover ability or for 30 munition to CE via demolition charges.


I know i said it multyple times its designed to fight vehicles. Just not all of them equally effective. It will put other units out of a job. Wich it already does to an extent.

That the others units can do heavy crush is not part of this issue. They are not getting buffs wich they do not need.
5 Dec 2020, 08:51 AM
#347
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Got it. I now understand balance. If something is doing something it shouldn't be, it's just based RNG and just L2P. I'll remember that next time I drive my panther into my opponents base to kill a katy. :)

ISU-152 deleting squads from 70 range? Just dodge.


Are you really comparing a statistical outlier to something that’s very common?

You can’t make decisions on balance based on one RNG roll.
5 Dec 2020, 08:53 AM
#348
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13097 | Subs: 1



I know i said it multyple times its designed to fight vehicles. Just not all of them equally effective. It will put other units out of a job. Wich it already does to an extent.

But SU-85 M36 and FF already fight all vehicle "equally effective" since they have the accuracy and penetration to deal with all of them. Why should Panther be an acceptation?

This is all or nothing design approach. Either there "medium TDs"/"Heavy TDs" design where Panther/M36/SU-85/FF are designed to counter mostly super heavies or not.


That the others units can do heavy crush is not part of this issue. They are not getting buffs wich they do not need.

heavy crush is also irrelevant to accuracy so lets try to keep out of it.
5 Dec 2020, 09:09 AM
#349
avatar of Latch

Posts: 768



We're comparing driving our tanks into AT guns and fausts with no support to missing a katy at 15 range? The fact that you drove into AT guns, get snared, and still just drive away is testament to the churchill's viability at a damage soak.........

Then saying an AT gun can't hit another AT gun when it's decrewed and getting flanked by a hetzer because again..... no support. Clearly my point has been usurped by quality counter arguments.


Shit yeah, the issue of my Churchill missing and bouncing and then refusing to fire at point blank range is all to do with the fact that it was unsupported.

Everyone always does this kind of shit when a video shows them something they don't like, they completely derail the point of the video, its laughable.

Churchill video shows the churchil bouncing at point blank range, then a bug, refusing to fire but of course the point you take from it has got to do with high HP and that it "wasn't supported" (it was a dive, to kill a hetzer with a Churchill, who would have thought it wouldn't work? Much like your Panther video, shit happens hence my comparison to yours)

AT gun video shows the RNG even when you make the odds the best you possibly can, and again, shit happens, but we don't all cry about it B-)
5 Dec 2020, 12:36 PM
#350
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1239

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2020, 08:53 AMVipper

But SU-85 M36 and FF already fight all vehicle "equally effective" since they have the accuracy and penetration to deal with all of them. Why should Panther be an acceptation?

This is all or nothing design approach. Either there "medium TDs"/"Heavy TDs" design where Panther/M36/SU-85/FF are designed to counter mostly super heavies or not.


heavy crush is also irrelevant to accuracy so lets try to keep out of it.


Allies face stock premium meds, they need stock answers to those. Axis at most face one premium med and 1 heavy stock from 1 opposing faction. So that that allied td's have a broader range shoudnt be a suprise to any one.
The su85 ff m36 fight most target equally effective at max range only. Because they outrange them. Once that is not the case they fall short as they should and do.

Jp4 while its own beast isent used cuz the panther overlaps and is a safer choice.

Heavy crush allows panthers to get the drop on vehicles it would not be able to without it.

5 Dec 2020, 13:51 PM
#351
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13097 | Subs: 1



Allies face stock premium meds, they need stock answers to those. Axis at most face one premium med and 1 heavy stock from 1 opposing faction. So that that allied td's have a broader range shoudnt be a suprise to any one.
The su85 ff m36 fight most target equally effective at max range only. Because they outrange them. Once that is not the case they fall short as they should and do.

That does not change the fact that their should either be a distinction in design between heavy and medium TD and Panther/SU-86/FF/M36 should all be in the first category or none of them. This is a simply design choice unrelated to balance.


Jp4 while its own beast isent used cuz the panther overlaps and is a safer choice.

Heavy crush allows panthers to get the drop on vehicles it would not be able to without it.


If that was true the Stug would not be used either for the same reason.

JP4 is not used because it is very expensive, takes too much pop and can easily be circle strafed and die if only one is build.

And once can easily say the same about the SU-76/M10, "isnt used cuz the Su-85/M36 overlaps and is a safer choice"
5 Dec 2020, 14:21 PM
#354
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

Panther is always going to be strange because of its design.

High frontal armor, low rear armor.

Less range than your usual tank destroyer.

Blitz.

So you are supposed to keep your frontal armor at the enemy or be punished.

Yet you are also supposed to dive into the 60 range anti tank to deal damage.

Best would be to lower the rate of fire and increase range and change the vet 1 ability.

Unless those radical changes are done, the Panther will always feel strange.
5 Dec 2020, 14:26 PM
#355
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 85

Good point! Miragefla once mentioned the idea to make Panther like Firefly.

I would definitely appreciate that change, cause at this time, there is no real use for Panther.
5 Dec 2020, 14:34 PM
#356
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Good point! Miragefla once mentioned the idea to make Panther like Firefly.

I would definitely appreciate that change, cause at this time, there is no real use for Panther.



Wot
5 Dec 2020, 14:35 PM
#357
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1239

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2020, 13:51 PMVipper

That does not change the fact that their should either be a distinction in design between heavy and medium TD and Panther/SU-86/FF/M36 should all be in the first category or none of them. This is a simply design choice unrelated to balance.


If that was true the Stug would not be used either for the same reason.

JP4 is not used because it is very expensive, takes too much pop and can easily be circle strafed and die if only one is build.

And once can easily say the same about the SU-76/M10, "isnt used cuz the Su-85/M36 overlaps and is a safer choice"




You cant ignore faction traits such as having stock heavy and super heavy armour. When attempting to balance td's and units such as the panther. The axis do not face stock super heavies. They already have good at power to deal with mediums. Panthers should not also excel to much or more vs meds then it already does.

The su76 is fine at best vs ost. It isent fine vs okw. 234 armour out of the gate on meds will see to that. Puma will see to that. It will circle strafe or kite it to death. The su76 is more a light td then it is a medium td. Hence the su85 who is stronger more durable and its gun can move is a safer choice.
Stug and jagp4 both do a lot better at being a medium td then the su76.

Ost panther usualy arrives later there is a bigger time frame for the stug to be effective in. For okw jp4 (wich is about the price as the su85) and panther are in the same tier and since the panther went from about 9 sec relaod to 6 second reload there is no reason to build jp4 since it buffed the panther vs mediums.

5 Dec 2020, 14:46 PM
#358
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1


Jp4 while its own beast isent used cuz the panther overlaps and is a safer choice.


Jp4 and Stug are med TDs, they are not ment to face heavy targets. And as for AT mesures against meds, you either can use your own meds or AT guns. When it comes to facing anything else, panther becames better chose, because you can dive in and take a lot of punishment.

You never will be able to out-spam allies TDs with JP4, aswell as, when properly played, allied TDs have an upper hand over stugs.

Allies TDs on the other hand can effectively fight any kind of armored unit, equally effective and equally forgiving.

People mostly go for panthers, simply because they are reliable, you know if you are investing in them you wont be fucked up by rng that bad.
5 Dec 2020, 16:55 PM
#359
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Dec 2020, 01:56 AMLatch


AT gun was max range!?! lol 17 seconds in, you call that max range? Nice to see your biases are still stronk!
did u see the video ? the at gun was out of the screen when it missed

unless u mean the pupchen which has 10 target size ? if so it's really irrelevant, at weapons have at max 0.08 acc so even at that it would always have a chance to miss (10x0.08= 80% to hit)

in the video specifically that at gun had between 0.05 and 0.06 acc so around 50% to miss
5 Dec 2020, 17:03 PM
#360
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2




Against a Katyusha (20 TS), the Panther has 100% accuracy only up to about 17 range. The range in the video is around 20, so there is a very small chance (0-10% up to 25 range) to miss.


I thought it was at most 15 range, but i guess it's just visually confusing at first if you look the distance within the end of the barrel and the Katyusha.
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