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Why Relic Needs to Stop Listening to the Community

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21 Nov 2020, 12:30 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13054 | Subs: 1

At this point I think I need to point out that regardless of homogenization the MOD team has make an excellent work in fixing a huge number of bugs, exploits and other thing that made the game bad.
21 Nov 2020, 12:57 PM
#25
avatar of Letzte Bataillon

Posts: 195

Whenever I go through the patch changelog I am amazed at the amount of broken ideas and mechanics that the player balance team has turned into interesting and viable choices.

For example, not too long ago we had the strange and de facto useless OKW Sturm Offizier that made all your units retreat if the officer model was killed! With last year's new commander balance patch the officer became an actually useful unit that supports your infantry with various abilities. This was an idea that while interesting on paper, failed in practice and it was very clear from a player standpoint what should be changed and fortunately it did.

Another example is all the new commanders from that patch. They are all useful, every single ability and unit they offer, adding interesting new choices for every army. It takes the insight of a player to create that. The people who thought upon these clearly love the game and deeply know its inner workings.

Finally, COH2 is still the most asymmetrically balanced RTS out there. The amount of different playstyles, builds and doctrines for each army is astounding. There's always something new to try. Take a look at the popular Age of Empires series so far: It's always the same gameplay with tiny differences no matter what civilization you pick. The fact that by any metric COH2 with its complexity is so balanced (win rate differences are tiny) is a testament to the work of Relic's developers and the community balance team.
21 Nov 2020, 13:12 PM
#26
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

Whenever I go through the patch changelog I am amazed at the amount of broken ideas and mechanics that the player balance team has turned into interesting and viable choices.

[...]

Finally, COH2 is still the most asymmetrically balanced RTS out there. The amount of different playstyles, builds and doctrines for each army is astounding. There's always something new to try. Take a look at the popular Age of Empires series so far: It's always the same gameplay with tiny differences no matter what civilization you pick. The fact that by any metric COH2 with its complexity is so balanced (win rate differences are tiny) is a testament to the work of Relic's developers and the community balance team.


+1
21 Nov 2020, 14:15 PM
#27
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 867

.....results in Volksgrenadiers losing their Shreks and getting fausts cuz "balance."


Schreckvolks after the vet V nerfs and 2 x increased costs to schrecks weren't that bad imho. (110, 130? per schreck was crazily expensive). The screaming was unwarranted at that price and them no longer being the 'bulletproof' mobs they once were. Not a fan of the fausts they have now, esp with this strange timing and reduced range. I do miss the Suppresskubel and I think it was a mistake to lose it to get the dodgy car we have now. Can't remember if it was better armoured back in the day.

Overall I'd say most of the toxic and OP stuff did get removed/reworked over the years for a net positive but many changes have been bad too. (Tiger meta anyone? Assault Infantry Section wtf? USF mortar nondoc for a faction with nondoc smoke on RE/Major? Panther rework I disagree with to this day, it was fine at 320 armor, 800 hp imho). Definitely not a fan of OKW being a worse OST overall, except for the very late game and a tiny slither of the early game.
21 Nov 2020, 14:15 PM
#28
avatar of gunther09
Donator 22

Posts: 493



Finally, COH2 is still the most asymmetrically balanced RTS out there.


Interesting, I was not aware of this.
It must be horribly difficult to balance an asymetrical game on release.
21 Nov 2020, 16:39 PM
#29
avatar of gollo

Posts: 8

Why Balancing Is Ruining CoH2 & Why Relic Needs to Stop Listening to the Community


Context: coming in to CoH2 after 5/4 years and overall a lot of the game has lost its interesting and fun designs over the years due to community balance patches. Relic needs to stop listening to the community so much, and especially letting the community make design changes to the game. I think the original faction designs of OKW, USF, and UKF were much more fun when they originally were released than their toned down "balanced" versions today. I still love the game btw, CoH2 is amazing.
changes to the game along with others responsible for community mod balance changes.


Agree %100 game needs to be fun again.
21 Nov 2020, 16:40 PM
#30
avatar of gollo

Posts: 8

Is a shame when a game lost it's original desing... now you have a semi balance game but it is super boring to watch... you barely see any mortar, KT, JT in 1v1
21 Nov 2020, 18:16 PM
#31
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2020, 12:30 PMVipper
At this point I think I need to point out that regardless of homogenization the MOD team has make an excellent work in fixing a huge number of bugs, exploits and other thing that made the game bad.


This Vipper, I forgot to mention in the thread and I agree.

ONE THING THE COMMUNITY DID RIGHT IS FIX BUGS. AND I THINK THAT IS THE ONLY THING THE COMMUNITY IS QUALIFIED FOR. LET RELIC (Quin Duffy, Jason Lee, etc.) DO THE DESIGNING
21 Nov 2020, 18:21 PM
#32
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 116

Things Quin duffy and Jason lee don't want to do: Still work on this game.

I don't get why we should leave this game to a state like Broodwar, when implementing maps into the game is a pain apparently and additionally only having like 5 people at most who make decent maps. (Because broodwar balances itself with maps which favour different factions, it had no balance patch in a decade or so)

I am very happy about the fact that relic even made it possible for the community to work on balancing. If you want to be coh2 to be "real" again, then write them a letter to make CoH3 after they are done with Age4
21 Nov 2020, 18:21 PM
#33
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

"Community needs to stop complaining about balance changes, understand that fun-ness is more important than balance."

Okay noob


I'll beat you, your only argument is calling me a noob.
21 Nov 2020, 18:26 PM
#34
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



I'll beat you, your only argument is calling me a noob.


Sure? I guess?

Feel free to add me on steam lol
aaa
21 Nov 2020, 18:32 PM
#35
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1484

How imbecilic it is "they need to stop listening comunity" and start long whine at the same post.

Sillliets post of the year candididate
21 Nov 2020, 18:51 PM
#36
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

OP is complaining about losing 2 man sniper teams fighting 4 man squads . I have no words anymore .. you're right about they shouldn't be listening to YOU that's for sure.
21 Nov 2020, 20:21 PM
#37
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


I'm not sure what you mean here. As far as I know Soviets have always needed to build T1/2 + T3 + T4 tech structures since the beginning of the game. Nothing changed there, at least nothing that the current team changed.


Nope. You required either T1 or T2 in order to unlock T3 or T4.

T1 and T2 had the same units as of now. T3 had T70, M5 and T3476 while T4 had Su76, Su85 and Katyusha. This basically lead to either T1 + T4 strats (sniper + Su85) or T2 + T3 with the Zis gun acting as the AT while you spam either T70s or T76s.

Rare and only for 1v1, there was a Conscript T1 + T3 T70 rush all in. Overall gaps in the roster were filled by call in vehicles with no tech required. That was also the alternative to not teching pass T1 or T2. Stay in low tech and just call in 2x T3485s, IS2s or KV8s.

Finally, COH2 is still the most asymmetrically balanced RTS out there. The amount of different playstyles, builds and doctrines for each army is astounding. There's always something new to try. Take a look at the popular Age of Empires series so far: It's always the same gameplay with tiny differences no matter what civilization you pick. The fact that by any metric COH2 with its complexity is so balanced (win rate differences are tiny) is a testament to the work of Relic's developers and the community balance team.


I think this is just talking out of ignorance.
WC3 is pretty obvious.
SC2 has 3 clear assymetrical races and while unit usage might look the same (specially in late game) it's all about the nuisance in the openings and mid game transitions that matter.
AoE2 ends up with the most symmetrical balance but each civ plays completely different. Yes, infantry/cavalry/archer might transition similarly but i think you are stacked back in 2000 if you think they are all equal.
21 Nov 2020, 20:42 PM
#38
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

i wanna adress the posts regarding making the teching more linear.

While one might think that hard split teching (old sov) is a good idea and improves variety or decision making its actually the opposite.

Basically when regarding hard split teching in 99% of the cases one tech will outperform the other so basically one tech will be picked all the time, while the other becomes a meme.

So hard split teching basically achieves the opposite of what it tried to achieve (improving unit and build variety).
21 Nov 2020, 20:44 PM
#39
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

...


While i might not agree with the execution of all balance changes i understand they have to be pragmatic at some point.

Also, you are confused about some points, cause there are plenty of changes which were done by Relic on it's own way before community balance driven changes were a thing.

"As a game designer, I cannot help but to say that some things can and should be OP for the sake of fun-ness and interesting play, as long as there is a counter."

The problem is that there was no counter and the way factions were released lead to one dimensional style of play while disrupting all game experience in wildly different extremes.

We don't need 80%/90% WR factions killing specific game modes. USF in 1v1 and OKW/UKF in teamgames.

USF needed to get Rifles power budget reduced in order to make doctrinal infantry usable and allow the faction to get access and balance in the support weapon department.

OKW was far out of been an "aggressive faction" outside of the first 5 to 10 mins of the game. They had vCoH levels of turtling and Simcity for the mid to late game due to their lack of vehicle access.


21 Nov 2020, 21:00 PM
#40
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Nope. You required either T1 or T2 in order to unlock T3 or T4.

T1 and T2 had the same units as of now. T3 had T70, M5 and T3476 while T4 had Su76, Su85 and Katyusha. This basically lead to either T1 + T4 strats (sniper + Su85) or T2 + T3 with the Zis gun acting as the AT while you spam either T70s or T76s.

Rare and only for 1v1, there was a Conscript T1 + T3 T70 rush all in. Overall gaps in the roster were filled by call in vehicles with no tech required. That was also the alternative to not teching pass T1 or T2. Stay in low tech and just call in 2x T3485s, IS2s or KV8s.


Interesting, I never really played CoH2 mp during the early years. Sounds pretty bad though.
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