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Why Brits aren't op (and their design isn't bad)

14 Nov 2020, 17:51 PM
#81
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 905 | Subs: 1


Cons ARE cheaper than volks now so the match up is a bit better and cons are the only unit plagued with side grades


I will add that when it comes to Volks vs Cons, cons still do have preferable environment at close range, meaning that if there are no sturmpios around (but they will be most likely near, during first engagement), cons can still fight volks by catching them ofguard or lowering losses on aproach with oraah.
When volks get StGs its a different story, but as I said before STGs are here against WFA factions and provide unnessery DPS boost vs cons.

Unlike grens, cons managed to keep their identity as a mid\close range squad even facing OKW, while grens struggles to keep theirs, at least early on. Since long range is dominated by Tommies, and grens are not ment to push anyone, while Rifles have enouth of a everything to push grens almost always.
14 Nov 2020, 19:33 PM
#82
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 15:52 PMsuora


And Brits have to pay 150mp and 35f for the global upgrade, whereas any other faction doesn't.

The Brit matchup against the Ostheer meta is already very shitty, so making it even worse seems like a fucking terrible idea. If OKW is too weak to deal with sections (or any other allied mainline) give them some help instead.


Obviously you tone down Ostheer why do people jump to conclusions by one statement? You don't keep buffing things because that is how power creep takes full control. We are in a power creep meta right now and it sucks ass.
14 Nov 2020, 23:25 PM
#83
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


Cons ARE cheaper than volks now so the match up is a bit better and cons are the only unit plagued with side grades that inflate their price,


but thats exactly the issue... they arent cheaper than volks because they have to pay such a huge price in order to match the utility of volks... if you dont youre playing at a huge disadvantage...


the rest of the soviet generally pays for utility with slightly inferior stats rather than extra costs.


thats only worth it for the zis and (arguably) the soviet mortar... other units like the T-34-76 pay a huge price in terms of performance in order to gain ram for ram IL-2 combos... the SU-76 is a half arsed TD thats like a zis on wheels but worse... the m5 has been powercreeped by the 251 and doesnt provide healing... and so on... plus the soviet roster also has the maxim.... probably the most useless core unit ingame...


The power of versatility, even with extra cost is the flexibility it offers to react. This alone makes soviet very powerful and imo far from UP. some aspects are imo not up to snuff and id like to see the T70 weakened and the surrounding time frame buffed a bit so the entire mid game isn't reliant on it but for the most part the soviet are pretty great tbh


overreliance on a crutch unit kinda makes a faction bad though...
21 Nov 2020, 13:43 PM
#84
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 61

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 14:30 PMGeblobt


What stat exactly makes 4men Grens so OP compared to 4men Tommies? Is it the worse target size (0,91 vs 0,85) or is it the worse dmg at range >12? And getting Grens in the range where they can actually beat Tommies is impossible without losing models. And thats all without the cover bonus.

And ofc the 5men upgrade comes at the same time the lmg upgrade is on your first squad. So the only working strategy is abusing Osttruppen with Sniper in 1vs1 or 5Men Grens with Sniper in teamgames. Ofc they had to triple buff Pgrens so they are a burden now too. But that has nothing to do with how mediocre basic Grens are. And i dont even want to talk about the Volks-Section match-up, cause thats completly broken anyway.

And about the scaling: Tommies dont scale that much. They peak with the 5men upgrade and slowly lose that power over the game, cause their vet is subpar. Ofc they are still solid late game, but not on par with 7men Cons or 2*bar Rifle. The Bren upgrade is ok, but in most Games noone goes for it, cause Tommies with enfields do their job decently enough anyway.

This isn't true. Last time I checked the stats when comparing a 4man gren and 4man tommy squad, the grens had better stats with most things. Better damage, better accuracy, better reload times, rate of fire (out of cover) This is why I said, the UKF player has to get the bolster squad, or else struggle with weaker infantry. True they're better when in cover, but it's easy to counter that with things like grenades, assault inf, arty, ect

Saying they're going to lose a model is kinda a moot point, because this goes both ways and depends who was in cover first and who ran into who's line of sight.
Also idk where you're saying the UKF player is going to get 5man and LMGs at the same time. That's a 45 fuel cost, plus another 35 (or 30 don't remember) since 5man now requires platoon command post.
At this point the axis player will have enough for light vehicles, or if Ost will get a P4/Ostwind out faster.
There's also the fact that the Ost player will have the borderline OP MG2 to abuse tommies to prevent unfavorable match ups.
Lastly, by the time the UKF player gets bolster, the Ost player will have Pgrens which can stomp on tommies anyway if the Ost player has the skill.

Also disagree on scaling. Cons are weak unless you go airborne and 7man. And rifles /must/ get BARs just so they can compete late game, or else they'll get stomped on by things like obers
21 Nov 2020, 18:45 PM
#85
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211


This isn't true. Last time I checked the stats when comparing a 4man gren and 4man tommy squad, the grens had better stats with most things. Better damage, better accuracy, better reload times, rate of fire (out of cover) This is why I said, the UKF player has to get the bolster squad, or else struggle with weaker infantry. True they're better when in cover, but it's easy to counter that with things like grenades, assault inf, arty, ect

Saying they're going to lose a model is kinda a moot point, because this goes both ways and depends who was in cover first and who ran into who's line of sight.
Also idk where you're saying the UKF player is going to get 5man and LMGs at the same time. That's a 45 fuel cost, plus another 35 (or 30 don't remember) since 5man now requires platoon command post.
At this point the axis player will have enough for light vehicles, or if Ost will get a P4/Ostwind out faster.
There's also the fact that the Ost player will have the borderline OP MG2 to abuse tommies to prevent unfavorable match ups.
Lastly, by the time the UKF player gets bolster, the Ost player will have Pgrens which can stomp on tommies anyway if the Ost player has the skill.

Also disagree on scaling. Cons are weak unless you go airborne and 7man. And rifles /must/ get BARs just so they can compete late game, or else they'll get stomped on by things like obers


1. You can check here again: https://coh2.serealia.ca

2. The problem is you gonna lose models faster when you charge units and at the same time your dps is reduced. And cause grens lose long range vs sections they either have to close the distance to win or accept the outcome and stall until more units arrive. Either way they will lose the trade as long as both forces have equal amount of units.

3. Brits have to pay 35 fuel (bolster) and 30 fuel (tech) to advance to T2. Ost needs 10+20 fuel (both buildings) and 40 fuel (tech). So its 65 vs 70. And cause 70>65 my point still stands.

4.Yeah pgrens arrive quite fast atm and probably should get back in the t2 building.

5.Cons still have some utility and their vet3 is quite potent. But yeah they get into trouble vs STG Volks and Lmg Grens until vet3 (+t4). But lategame they are overall the best mainline unit in the Game.

6. Atleast Rifle have the option. Grens (except the op 5Men upgrade) and Volks are just running at-nades and lose vs everything but pios at that stage of the game. And there is nothing that dies faster against rocket arty and other explosives than Obers (RIP). I wish they would get dmg reduction like Grens and lose some of their rec acc for that.
22 Nov 2020, 06:32 AM
#86
avatar of Close Support Sapper

Posts: 1187

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2020, 18:45 PMGeblobt


1. You can check here again: https://coh2.serealia.ca

2. The problem is you gonna lose models faster when you charge units and at the same time your dps is reduced. And cause grens lose long range vs sections they either have to close the distance to win or accept the outcome and stall until more units arrive. Either way they will lose the trade as long as both forces have equal amount of units.

3. Brits have to pay 35 fuel (bolster) and 30 fuel (tech) to advance to T2. Ost needs 10+20 fuel (both buildings) and 40 fuel (tech). So its 65 vs 70. And cause 70>65 my point still stands.

4.Yeah pgrens arrive quite fast atm and probably should get back in the t2 building.

5.Cons still have some utility and their vet3 is quite potent. But yeah they get into trouble vs STG Volks and Lmg Grens until vet3 (+t4). But lategame they are overall the best mainline unit in the Game.

6. Atleast Rifle have the option. Grens (except the op 5Men upgrade) and Volks are just running at-nades and lose vs everything but pios at that stage of the game. And there is nothing that dies faster against rocket arty and other explosives than Obers (RIP). I wish they would get dmg reduction like Grens and lose some of their rec acc for that.


2. But gren is cheaper and have better built time so you will have more unit and they will joint the fight faster.

3. Add 15 fu for weapons rack then it will be 80 vs 70, and 10 more for nade then you have 90 vs 70.
22 Nov 2020, 11:31 AM
#87
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

2. I tested it. Here are the build times.
1. Gren: 42s 1. Section: 0s
2. Gren: 66s 2. Section: 29s
3. Gren: 103s 3. Section: 70s
4. Gren: 158s 4. Section: 129s

Now we can argue how impactful the starting pio squad is, cause Gren wont outnumber sections thats for sure.

3. And? You can add whatever you want. Doesnt change that the Bolster+T2 rush is faster than the Ost T2 build. Noone on this earth is going to get weapon racks at 3 mins. Even the grenade unlock is very uncommon before bolster.
22 Nov 2020, 13:41 PM
#88
avatar of Close Support Sapper

Posts: 1187

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2020, 11:31 AMGeblobt
2. I tested it. Here are the build times.
1. Gren: 42s 1. Section: 0s
2. Gren: 66s 2. Section: 29s
3. Gren: 103s 3. Section: 70s
4. Gren: 158s 4. Section: 129s

Now we can argue how impactful the starting pio squad is, cause Gren wont outnumber sections thats for sure.

3. And? You can add whatever you want. Doesnt change that the Bolster+T2 rush is faster than the Ost T2 build. Noone on this earth is going to get weapon racks at 3 mins. Even the grenade unlock is very uncommon before bolster.


2. My point was not that gen outnumber tommy, but that ost will have more unit overall.
3. i was miss reading your original point: "the 5men upgrade comes at the same time the lmg upgrade is on your first squad", now i get it that you was saying bolster come at same time with LMG42 on gren, but at fist i think that is a T2/bolster and rack built at the same time.
23 Nov 2020, 10:33 AM
#89
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 494 | Subs: 1


This isn't true. Last time I checked the stats when comparing a 4man gren and 4man tommy squad, the grens had better stats with most things. Better damage, better accuracy, better reload times, rate of fire (out of cover) This is why I said, the UKF player has to get the bolster squad, or else struggle with weaker infantry. True they're better when in cover, but it's easy to counter that with things like grenades, assault inf, arty, ect



Grens have like what, 4 to 5% better dps against out of cover tommies, which already makes Grens worse cos their RA is 6% worse and they have a higher reinforce cost per model.

That's against out-of-cover tommies. I don't know how bad you guys must be to keep using the basis of comparison as out-of-cover Tommies, as if using cover was the hardest thing to do in the game and was somehow accessible only to world-class players. I learnt that in the tutorial and used it to beat the Normal AI. If your Tommies are out-of-cover every engagement, that's on you. The whole map is filled with cover for you to use.

Tommies are only a little better than grens when both are out of cover, but since you can literally build sandbags even if you don't want to use the 200+ pieces of terrain or map objects available, the massive cooldown bonus means that stock Tommies stomp stock Grens virtually all the time.

It's the rest of Ost (and doctrines) that can make it difficult for Brits to play vs Ost. Good MG42 play and fast Pgrens are what swing the advantage to Ost imo, but the ridiculous fake news that vanilla Grens can even compete with Tommies really needs to get stomped out.
25 Nov 2020, 14:33 PM
#90
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 440

Banned
Brits get to chose any commander while having the best infantry, the second best mg, can cheese with emplacements, get forward retreat point and the list gets on.

Brits are just op and easy to play.
25 Nov 2020, 14:37 PM
#91
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 116

2nd best MG? Now thats a bold claim.
25 Nov 2020, 15:43 PM
#92
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1352

Brits get to chose any commander while having the best infantry, the second best mg, can cheese with emplacements, get forward retreat point and the list gets on.

Brits are just op and easy to play.


Best infantry? They have good infantry that needs a 90 munition upgrade to be effective later on unless the enemy carpet bombs the entire map so there are plenty of craters. Their infantry has a power spike with 5man which can be destructive but not impossible to counter.
2nd best MG? 50.cal and MG34 share the spot for 2nd best stock MG.
Cheese with emplacements? Mortar can be toxic but there are plenty of options to deal with it. AA is useless since it goes down easily with a pak/raketen.
Forward retreat point. If the enemy brit manages to keep the forward retreat point alive (which is quite expensive in terms to constant engagements, to maintain), then it's on you. The FRP has slow reinforce time so it's not like brit can retreat and be back immediately to fight.
List goes on? Please do continue it.

0 arguments. Plenty of claims. Science, not even once.
Cry more please.
25 Nov 2020, 18:15 PM
#93
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5277

ALL mainline infantry need munitions to be effective late game. ALL OF THEM. Because ALL of the enemy squads are ALSO going to invest muni in theirs. Saying it needs to invest like the enemy does does not disqualify their supremacy. If having to invest munitions to fight enemy squads that also invested munitions means a squad isn't good then there is no single decent infantry in the game.
25 Nov 2020, 19:16 PM
#94
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1352

ALL mainline infantry need munitions to be effective late game. ALL OF THEM. Because ALL of the enemy squads are ALSO going to invest muni in theirs. Saying it needs to invest like the enemy does does not disqualify their supremacy. If having to invest munitions to fight enemy squads that also invested munitions means a squad isn't good then there is no single decent infantry in the game.


True. But there's also a fact that grens LMG upgrade is much cheaper than 2x bren and fits the role of grens. 2x bar is late-late game upgrade if you're not playing any doctrines with offmap or ranger zooks (ranger + RE zook combo). Only other unit gren comes to mind is IS which need a slight MP price increase after the 5man upgrade since brens cost "only" 45 munitions and getting 2 is not sacrificing anything except maybe one base arty from them. That's my point. Difference in costs of fully upgraded squads.
Pip
25 Nov 2020, 19:48 PM
#95
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



True. But there's also a fact that grens LMG upgrade is much cheaper than 2x bren and fits the role of grens. 2x bar is late-late game upgrade if you're not playing any doctrines with offmap or ranger zooks (ranger + RE zook combo). Only other unit gren comes to mind is IS which need a slight MP price increase after the 5man upgrade since brens cost "only" 45 munitions and getting 2 is not sacrificing anything except maybe one base arty from them. That's my point. Difference in costs of fully upgraded squads.


Im reasonably sure a single bren'd 5man IS is still better than an LMG Grenadier squad. Double Brens is icing.
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