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Why Brits aren't op (and their design isn't bad)

Pip
12 Nov 2020, 18:25 PM
#61
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 07:25 AMmrgame2
ukf are pop limited.
i never agreed with churchill pop increase
my suggestions was a mix of +1 pop and -50% reduce in gun damage.


Are UKF pop limited to the same degree OKW is? I've never seen them as quite as strict as OKW.
12 Nov 2020, 22:43 PM
#62
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 18:25 PMPip


Are UKF pop limited to the same degree OKW is? I've never seen them as quite as strict as OKW.

How?
Every single equivalent unit of UKF costs more pop then OKW one with sole exception being engineers and HMG/ATG.
Pip
13 Nov 2020, 01:01 AM
#63
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 22:43 PMKatitof

How?
Every single equivalent unit of UKF costs more pop then OKW one with sole exception being engineers and HMG/ATG.


Like which? The main standouts for "equivalent units" are Volks(Fusies) vs IS, which are 7(8) pop versus 7(8 with Bolster)(Obers are 9, also), REs vs Sturms with 6 vs 8,) the Cromwell vs the P4, with 12 vs 14, and the AEC vs the Puma, at 6 vs 7.

Depending on how you view the units, you then might want to compare the Firefly(16) to either the Jpz(15) or Panther(18). The former is more obviously "the same", but the Panther is generally what Axis use as their equivalent to Allied 60 range TDs.

Other units are generally identically priced, or don't have directly comparable units on the opposing side. The only other thing is Mortar (8 for pit, which is basically "two" mortars, 6 for standalone) vs Leig(7), but the standalone mortar is doctrinal, and the emplacements are a bit odd.
13 Nov 2020, 06:59 AM
#64
avatar of Elpern

Posts: 83

You kinda missed the point on most of your points giaa, your sov OP thread was better, 2/10
13 Nov 2020, 08:48 AM
#65
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 517 | Subs: 1

13 Nov 2020, 15:26 PM
#66
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

Bolster should be something you have to upgrade on each squad even after you get 5-man upgrade. Right now Bolster instantly gives all of your squads 5-man whereas any other faction has to upgrade squads manually to be able to benefit from larger squad sizes. Make Bolster like 30-40 muni or something so it takes 150-160 muni to fully kit Tommies with Med Kits + Bolster + 2 Bren Guns.
13 Nov 2020, 15:52 PM
#67
avatar of suora

Posts: 101

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 15:26 PMClarity
Bolster should be something you have to upgrade on each squad even after you get 5-man upgrade. Right now Bolster instantly gives all of your squads 5-man whereas any other faction has to upgrade squads manually to be able to benefit from larger squad sizes. Make Bolster like 30-40 muni or something so it takes 150-160 muni to fully kit Tommies with Med Kits + Bolster + 2 Bren Guns.


And Brits have to pay 150mp and 35f for the global upgrade, whereas any other faction doesn't.

The Brit matchup against the Ostheer meta is already very shitty, so making it even worse seems like a fucking terrible idea. If OKW is too weak to deal with sections (or any other allied mainline) give them some help instead.
13 Nov 2020, 16:01 PM
#68
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

In the past, Brit were either non-existent or insanly dominant in competitive play... which says alot about their design.

They consistently had to make up for missing basic stuff with overtuned sections and doctrinal OP units/abilities to stay competitive.

No other faction has such a polarizing effect to them like Brits, it feels like each player is either a Brit main or hates them.

I tend to agree that their current performance isnt op in the current meta (except for some doctrinal stuff) but their design is very bad and im not even sure if its even remotely possible to balance their units and keep em competitive at the same time
13 Nov 2020, 16:23 PM
#69
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 15:26 PMClarity
Bolster should be something you have to upgrade on each squad even after you get 5-man upgrade. Right now Bolster instantly gives all of your squads 5-man whereas any other faction has to upgrade squads manually to be able to benefit from larger squad sizes. Make Bolster like 30-40 muni or something so it takes 150-160 muni to fully kit Tommies with Med Kits + Bolster + 2 Bren Guns.

Bolster costs precious and very important fuel as well as half a squad worth of mp, meanwhile any other squad can just spend abundant muni.
13 Nov 2020, 17:47 PM
#70
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 16:23 PMKatitof

Bolster costs precious and very important fuel as well as half a squad worth of mp, meanwhile any other squad can just spend abundant muni.

Brits at that point have fuel floating like crazy compared to any other faction if they don't spend it on bolster and racks, you will have a 12 min Cromwell in every game.
14 Nov 2020, 00:13 AM
#71
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 16:23 PMKatitof

Bolster costs precious and very important fuel as well as half a squad worth of mp, meanwhile any other squad can just spend abundant muni.


WELLLLLL soviet COULD pay like double that, to get in on 1 squad, which they then have to ALSO spend munitions to get AND it locks out their only weapon slot...
iirc upgrading to additional models to all other factions that can has more drawbacks than just cost, like locking out other options

cost alone does not justify a brokenly stupid mechanic/stats. KT is expensive as hell and it was nerfed to hell.

whats more im unmovable that tommies are stupidly designed because of bolster. they will either be UP as 4 man and good as 5 or good as 4 and OP at 5 becuse bolster isnt an "if" but a "when" and "when" bolster is bought the powerspike is incredible and without drawback
14 Nov 2020, 00:47 AM
#72
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



WELLLLLL soviet COULD pay like double that, to get in on 1 squad, which they then have to ALSO spend munitions to get AND it locks out their only weapon slot...
iirc upgrading to additional models to all other factions that can has more drawbacks than just cost, like locking out other options

cost alone does not justify a brokenly stupid mechanic/stats. KT is expensive as hell and it was nerfed to hell.

whats more im unmovable that tommies are stupidly designed because of bolster. they will either be UP as 4 man and good as 5 or good as 4 and OP at 5 becuse bolster isnt an "if" but a "when" and "when" bolster is bought the powerspike is incredible and without drawback



i think thats more of soviet being UP more than anything
14 Nov 2020, 02:25 AM
#73
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 00:47 AMgbem



i think thats more of soviet being UP more than anything

I don't believe the soviet are UP. the opposite actually, as they are extremely flexibile and have an ability for everything

Id even argue, despite how my previous post read that in the current soviet faction the 7 man hoops are acceptable.

I believe that bolster for brits however is both one of the best things the brits have and also one of the worst for balance.
14 Nov 2020, 03:25 AM
#74
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


I don't believe the soviet are UP. the opposite actually, as they are extremely flexibile and have an ability for everything

Id even argue, despite how my previous post read that in the current soviet faction the 7 man hoops are acceptable.

I believe that bolster for brits however is both one of the best things the brits have and also one of the worst for balance.


the main problem with sov is that their utility and versatility is locked through unecessarily high costs... take conscripts they have comparable combat ability to volks or grens but you need to buy molotov and AT nades separately... in contrast rifles and IS smash grens and volks outright in terms of combat ability hence dont need nades and whatnot to come for free...
14 Nov 2020, 10:11 AM
#75
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62

If the devs gave the brits the really trashy 81mm mortar as a non-doctrine unit, this would fix up most of the problems this faction has. Brits would have a mobile indirect fire option, and because the mortar isn't that impressive to begin with, it shouldn't tilt balance into favor with the UKF. As a replacement for the crapy lend-lease doctrine give that commander the mortar half track instead. That would raise the lend-lease commander from a mediocre commander to a pretty decent commander.

The UKF is also in a poor state with their armor, give a tiny armor buff to the Cromwell and AEC (especially to compensate AEC's inferior sight range) so it's armor isn't wetpaper and doesn't die the moment a shreck blob appears and the UKF would be in a pretty good spot, enough that it should overlook any other of the faction's weak comings.
14 Nov 2020, 10:14 AM
#76
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62


Because Rifles and cons are good at mid\close range, while volks and grens are good pretty much exclusively at long range, and long range dominated by Tommies. There is no way to close in if tommies are already in possition and in cover, they will eat you alive.

Gotta slightly disagree with that on one thing. True, tommies become OP when they get their 5man squad upgrade. But as a 4man squad, they are the weakest infantry unit. Compare a 4man tommy squad to a gren squad on a stat basis and not only are they outclassed but borderline handicapped. So true, Tommies have the potential to mow down infantry, but this isn't until the late game, where axis players will have more tools to counter. Early game, tommies are at the disadvantage. Also no snare, and Grens have really good grenades and superior LMGs that don't require unlocks.
14 Nov 2020, 11:53 AM
#77
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

In the past, Brit were either non-existent or insanly dominant in competitive play... which says alot about their design.

They consistently had to make up for missing basic stuff with overtuned sections and doctrinal OP units/abilities to stay competitive.

No other faction has such a polarizing effect to them like Brits, it feels like each player is either a Brit main or hates them.

I tend to agree that their current performance isnt op in the current meta (except for some doctrinal stuff) but their design is very bad and im not even sure if its even remotely possible to balance their units and keep em competitive at the same time


And how would you balance the faction whos techtree is 50% smaller than Sov/ostheer? If the faction lacks of basic units and tools then desinger makes other units or abilities fill that role by making them more powerfull and universal. It's really hard to find middle ground.

There is a reason why ostheer is called the best balance and design faction. It has counter to everything, big techtree which gives plenty of options and it's able to make his army viable with combine arms (which requires some skill to use). Compare to brits that best strat is to get 4 tommy squad in 1 blob. It's still way better than it used to be. Relic added more basic tools (we got airlanding officer, smoke barrage etc.) but such a simple tech tree and lack of diversity in number of available tanks or infantry has still huge inpact into the game.

But same issue was in coh1
14 Nov 2020, 12:01 PM
#78
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1


Gotta slightly disagree with that on one thing. True, tommies become OP when they get their 5man squad upgrade. But as a 4man squad, they are the weakest infantry unit. Compare a 4man tommy squad to a gren squad on a stat basis and not only are they outclassed but borderline handicapped. So true, Tommies have the potential to mow down infantry, but this isn't until the late game, where axis players will have more tools to counter. Early game, tommies are at the disadvantage. Also no snare, and Grens have really good grenades and superior LMGs that don't require unlocks.


If we consider raw 1v1ning (and in early game its possible) against both grenadiers\volks grenadiers in cover, then 4 tommies are able to beat volks at long range\somewhat at mid range if both stay in green cover.

As for grens they will beat grens at long range again it green cover, but might lose at mid range.

You can test it out aswell with cheat commands mod. Ofcourse in real game such long firefights wont happen, but overall early on Tommies can be beaten mostly if you catch them or force them out of the possition, if they are already in their preferable possition, they are by no means weakest inf.
14 Nov 2020, 14:30 PM
#79
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211


Gotta slightly disagree with that on one thing. True, tommies become OP when they get their 5man squad upgrade. But as a 4man squad, they are the weakest infantry unit. Compare a 4man tommy squad to a gren squad on a stat basis and not only are they outclassed but borderline handicapped. So true, Tommies have the potential to mow down infantry, but this isn't until the late game, where axis players will have more tools to counter. Early game, tommies are at the disadvantage. Also no snare, and Grens have really good grenades and superior LMGs that don't require unlocks.


What stat exactly makes 4men Grens so OP compared to 4men Tommies? Is it the worse target size (0,91 vs 0,85) or is it the worse dmg at range >12? And getting Grens in the range where they can actually beat Tommies is impossible without losing models. And thats all without the cover bonus.

And ofc the 5men upgrade comes at the same time the lmg upgrade is on your first squad. So the only working strategy is abusing Osttruppen with Sniper in 1vs1 or 5Men Grens with Sniper in teamgames. Ofc they had to triple buff Pgrens so they are a burden now too. But that has nothing to do with how mediocre basic Grens are. And i dont even want to talk about the Volks-Section match-up, cause thats completly broken anyway.

And about the scaling: Tommies dont scale that much. They peak with the 5men upgrade and slowly lose that power over the game, cause their vet is subpar. Ofc they are still solid late game, but not on par with 7men Cons or 2*bar Rifle. The Bren upgrade is ok, but in most Games noone goes for it, cause Tommies with enfields do their job decently enough anyway.
14 Nov 2020, 15:48 PM
#80
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 03:25 AMgbem


the main problem with sov is that their utility and versatility is locked through unecessarily high costs... take conscripts they have comparable combat ability to volks or grens but you need to buy molotov and AT nades separately... in contrast rifles and IS smash grens and volks outright in terms of combat ability hence dont need nades and whatnot to come for free...

Cons ARE cheaper than volks now so the match up is a bit better and cons are the only unit plagued with side grades that inflate their price, the rest of the soviet generally pays for utility with slightly inferior stats rather than extra costs.

The power of versatility, even with extra cost is the flexibility it offers to react. This alone makes soviet very powerful and imo far from UP. some aspects are imo not up to snuff and id like to see the T70 weakened and the surrounding time frame buffed a bit so the entire mid game isn't reliant on it but for the most part the soviet are pretty great tbh
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