Login

russian armor

Viable alternative to T70 as soviets

Pip
29 Oct 2020, 15:29 PM
#41
avatar of Pip

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 15:20 PMKatitof

Affordability of unit directly affects its combat effectiveness, because in infantry case, field presence of a unit is quite important, cost and timing influence that effectiveness.

This is why penals are alright unit, but dead as meta one, while PFs are being spammed everywhere above 1v1.

Since you don't start with premade army matching opponents premade army for the pop and cost, but need to field it first, you have to take into account timing, cost and what opponent will have on field as well.

Penals will ALWAYS be outnumbered, they will win 1v1 engagements, but they aren't going to be engaging like that past first 2-3 minutes, because its impossible to field enough of them.

And, again, we've made a full circle, where T-70 comes to the rescue, balancing that out in mid game.


But i keep seeing you make the argument that Penals "Have no AI upgrade" and that "Their Vet accuracy doesnt help them!".

We can agree that Penals need to be looked at in the affordability department (But if they win 1-on-1 easily Vs Volks and Grens they can't be near the same price as either, especially considering they require no Muni investment to be at maximum power)

Penals need a niche before we can really consider just making them cheaper. They're good at all ranges. Soviets need work, both buffing and nerfing.
29 Oct 2020, 15:49 PM
#42
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 15:29 PMPip


But i keep seeing you make the argument that Penals "Have no AI upgrade" and that "Their Vet accuracy doesnt help them!".

Yes, in the context of the whole game length, not for 1v1 unrealistic, static test or cherrypicked scenario that does not include opponents actual, realistic army composition on field.

We can agree that Penals need to be looked at in the affordability department (But if they win 1-on-1 easily Vs Volks and Grens they can't be near the same price as either, especially considering they require no Muni investment to be at maximum power)

For the gazzilionth time, penals early game is NOT a problem. Its their (lack of)scaling into mid and especially late game, where a combination of them being outnumbered, having high reinforce cost, having tiny received accuracy vet and arrival of AoE damage and opposing infantry weapon upgrades makes them bad as it is impossible to inflict greater attrition then they themselves receive.

Penals need a niche before we can really consider just making them cheaper. They're good at all ranges. Soviets need work, both buffing and nerfing.

No one said they should be cheaper.

They suffer from exact same problem cons did prior to receiving late game upgrade with the difference being penals are actually reliable in EARLY game, but only early game and relaying too heavily on elite infantry -AND T-70- to cover for their weaknesses.
29 Oct 2020, 15:49 PM
#43
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1



This might be a really MP heavy build, it might be a challenge to sustain 2 cons and 3 penals.
Anyway, my build does not have rely only on the cons At-nade. One extra penal with a ptrs upgrade might be a solution to that problem?


It's indeed quite manpower heavy. You won't be able to afford T3 and T70 the moment you hit the fuel requirements as you will not have the manpower.You do save a little MP on not having to buy AT nades though. And you also won't have to buy a Zis gun which is nice.

PTRS penals are in my opinion a waste of assets. I never get them unless I absolutely have to. Penals don't have grenades that work against fast opponants so you rely fully on their SVT rifles to win infantry engagements. Losing a third of your rifles for 2 PTRS is not worth it IMO. Instead I much prefer to use units like Guards, Mini AT guns or PTRS Conscripts with my Penal builds.
29 Oct 2020, 15:56 PM
#44
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3218 | Subs: 1

Ah yes, this has finally turned into a Penals discussion with people unironically calling them viable.
29 Oct 2020, 16:02 PM
#45
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

Ah yes, this has finally turned into a Penals discussion with people unironically calling them viable.


And this tells us the following: the key to the T70 meta might lay with the penal squad. The Penals are supposed to provide AI capability, but might not fulfil that role as intended. This forces players to resort to the T70.
A change to penals, if one ever is to happen, might solve the T70 meta by it's own.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 16:04 PM
#46
avatar of Pip

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 15:49 PMKatitof

Yes, in the context of the whole game length, not for 1v1 unrealistic, static test or cherrypicked scenario that does not include opponents actual, realistic army composition on field.


For the gazzilionth time, penals early game is NOT a problem. Its their (lack of)scaling into mid and especially late game, where a combination of them being outnumbered, having high reinforce cost, having tiny received accuracy vet and arrival of AoE damage and opposing infantry weapon upgrades makes them bad as it is impossible to inflict greater attrition then they themselves receive.


No one said they should be cheaper.

They suffer from exact same problem cons did prior to receiving late game upgrade with the difference being penals are actually reliable in EARLY game, but only early game and relaying too heavily on elite infantry -AND T-70- to cover for their weaknesses.


Then do you have an actual suggestion as to how to improve them? Because I've already made the suggestion that they would benefit from an ATV-40 upgrade (Think similar to Volk STGs), and/or an universal upgrade that reduces their reinforcement cost. Perhaps even giving them a real grenade along with this.

Other options are to slash their costs, take away several SVTs, and turn them effectively into SVT conscripts out of the gate, with the option to then upgrade further to what they are now, with a further upgrade later on to improve them even further. Universal or individual upgrade is debatable.

In either case a slight RA improvement (Possibly tied to one of these upgrades rather than Vet) would also be good for them.

It's been demonstrated that they do compete with Upgraded Grens in this very thread, incidentally, in combat terms. Penals are a very jack-of-all-trades AI unit, so its hard to determine precisely how to "fix" them.

If you're willing to take the micro tax you can also offset their high reinforcement cost by using your Conscripts to merge into them, if you consider a ~9% reduction in costs worth it.

29 Oct 2020, 16:07 PM
#47
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3218 | Subs: 1



And this tells us the following: the key to the T70 meta might lay with the penal squad. The Penals are supposed to provide AI capability, but might not fulfil that role as intended. This forces players to resort to the T70.
A change to penals, if one ever is to happen, might solve the T70 meta by it's own.


I’d be inclined to agree, except T70 was just as dominant if not more when Penals were meta, so...
29 Oct 2020, 16:15 PM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



And this tells us the following: the key to the T70 meta might lay with the penal squad. The Penals are supposed to provide AI capability, but might not fulfil that role as intended. This forces players to resort to the T70.
A change to penals, if one ever is to happen, might solve the T70 meta by it's own.

Going T2 results in the exact same T-70 rush.
Going cons alone and building T2+T3 at once still means T-70 rush.

It does not matter which BO you pick, T-70 alone is what glues early and late game.
You can bypass it and play differently up until top 200, but if you want to get better rank, you're forced to pick T-70, because players there are good enough to exploit soviet infantry mid game weakness and aren't going to allow you to stall to T4.

T1 isn't going to save you from being murderfucked by flame 251 or luchs.
Neither is single ZiS if you go T2 instead, unless your opponent is a noob at lets his lv get snared or rushes it blindly into FoW.
29 Oct 2020, 16:26 PM
#49
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25



I’d be inclined to agree, except T70 was just as dominant if not more when Penals were meta, so...


Being a dominant unit does not mean "only possible choice" A lStuart can be a dominant vehicle, but that doesn't mean you can't go AA HT
29 Oct 2020, 16:43 PM
#50
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3218 | Subs: 1



Being a dominant unit does not mean "only possible choice" A lStuart can be a dominant vehicle, but that doesn't mean you can't go AA HT


You have already received several suggestions for alternative builds with warnings as to the dangers they carry. I don’t get how this is connected to a dude with 20 soviet 1v1s trying to reinvent the meta. By all means, enlighten me.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 16:45 PM
#51
avatar of Pip

Posts: 515

The T-70 being dominant in whichever meta isn't really relevant by itself.

At what point was it buffed to the strength its at now? Even if Soviets had UKF tier infantry they'd still use the T70 as it stands currently. It's just that good of an unit.
29 Oct 2020, 17:05 PM
#52
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 16:45 PMPip
The T-70 being dominant in whichever meta isn't really relevant by itself.

At what point was it buffed to the strength its at now? Even if Soviets had UKF tier infantry they'd still use the T70 as it stands currently. It's just that good of an unit.

T-70 was never buffed.
It received only nerfs.
Crush, speed, acceleration, removal of self repair that made it snare immune and normalization to 400health instead, removal of main gun being able to OHK models, increased scatter, decreased RoF, butchering of scout mode.

Pretty much every single possible stat that could be nerfed, was nerfed.

Its all the other units soviets could lean on that were nerfed.

Quad was briefly meta pick, then it was nerfed into meme(still go-to choice for AA at least), SU-76 was nerfed into irrelevance with barrage nerfs. Maxims lul, penals were re-adjusted to not be stronger cons but their own unit with their own specialization-then nerfed and cons are still cons in early and mid game.

T-70 became crutch only after call-in meta was removed, because going for anything else but T-70 at high level play resulted in auto loss.
29 Oct 2020, 17:38 PM
#53
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25


I don’t get how this is connected to a dude with 20 soviet 1v1s trying to reinvent the meta. By all means, enlighten me.


I'm just doing this because I like it. Talking about tactics, units, shuffling around buildorders and taking a look at every unit and it's use/non use and why. Coh2 theory you could say.
29 Oct 2020, 18:19 PM
#54
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 385 | Subs: 1



I'm just doing this because I like it. Talking about tactics, units, shuffling around buildorders and taking a look at every unit and it's use/non use and why. Coh2 theory you could say.


Unfortunately, the Soviet faction isn't well-designed enough to offer a viable alternative to the meta. The T-70 is necessary. This could be a fun discussion otherwise, like fast Greyhound vs BARs in CoH1.

It's a shame that starcraft-style meta shifts don't happen in this game, and I think that has to do with the game's composition requirements (you NEED vehicles and infantry, for example). Then, picking units is a simple matter of finding the most cost-efficient ones available.

Meta here is driven by unit balance, not finding new uses for units.
29 Oct 2020, 18:38 PM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 10502 | Subs: 1

What one has to keep in mind when talking about build orders is that they are not "one size fit all" solutions.

The mode, the map, the opponent's faction, the opponent units, the preferred style (offensive/defensive...) are all factor that make a Specific BO more or less effective.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 18:49 PM
#56
avatar of Pip

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 18:38 PMVipper
What one has to keep in mind when talking about build orders is that they are not "one size fit all" solutions.

The mode, the map, the opponent's faction, the opponent units, the preferred style (offensive/defensive...) are all factor that make a Specific BO more or less effective.


This is the thing, really. Arent clown cars still pretty good against OKW? Assuming they haven't built a Raketen for some reason.
29 Oct 2020, 19:03 PM
#57
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

i disagree with the penals based T-70 free build order... the most powerful build i can think of at the moment as sov requires the use of airborne...

4 conscripts => engineer => dshk => zis 3 => mass upgrade to SVT => SU-76

the general idea of the build is to utilize the powerful combat upgrade that the SVT provides in conjuction with the DSHK (which is an actual workable machinegun unlike another one cough maxim) to beat off infantry while utilizing zis3 + SU-76 to disloge weapon teams...

so far out of all the experimental builds this seems to be the only one that doesnt require a T-70 as a core feature of soviet gameplay... and it is almost entirely reliant on airborne because

1. airborne gives the soviets a fighting chance against upgraded infantry thanks to SVT

2. airborne gives the soviets an actual machinegun that is worth more than trash lmao....

the combination of the two partially fixes the terrible midgame performance of the soviets somewhat

i also like to end the build with a T-34-76... while the T-34-76 isnt that good of a medium tank on its own it does excel at snaring big heavy tanks for an IL-2 strafe...
29 Oct 2020, 20:12 PM
#58
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7765 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 18:49 PMPip


This is the thing, really. Arent clown cars still pretty good against OKW? Assuming they haven't built a Raketen for some reason.


You have to assume people not having a commander with PF as well. It's a high risk mid reward. On top of going for a build which offers poor map control, now you put more resources into a unit which can't cap and will lose any usage after 7 mins into the game. On 1v1 you will have muni and the upgrade ready around 3:30 (faster if u rush muni, have CE ready on your own territory, etc.) and you won't have too much more time before snares are unlocked. The best thing you can do is try to find isolated squads, cause with some focus fire, specially if SP are around, you can soft counter it till your truck is deployed.

T1 openings also make BHQ openings for OKW more viable as well, which makes them transition into Flak HQ much more easier.


I think it had enter the realm of cheese/pocket strat rather than normal/meta one. As long as you caught your opponent by surprise it might work, but against someone prepared or who knows how to deal with it, it might be not efficient.

29 Oct 2020, 20:28 PM
#59
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7765 | Subs: 2



Being a dominant unit does not mean "only possible choice" A lStuart can be a dominant vehicle, but that doesn't mean you can't go AA HT


Well, you have to take a look at which faction those units belongs to.

Compare USF with Soviets.

The post below may have some discrepancies due to it been a pre patch values but the general idea still applies.


Compare the timing of the and cost to deploy of the AA HT vs M5 Quad.

USF early mid game get's a boost from the "free officer".


The alternatives ways to playing Soviets without T70 is bunkering down and expect nothing bad happens till you unlock T4. Expect the opponent not using any light vehicle at all.

I think you have seen suggestions/alternative builds on this thread. The one you put at the first post is not good though.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 20:55 PM
#60
avatar of Pip

Posts: 515



snip



Fair point, I neglected to think about PF, and given their prominent place right now, It's more than likely you'll be facing them.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag Käsezwerg
  • Oberkommando West flag [NS] aerafield
  • Oberkommando West flag CSSSSSSI: Stalingrad
  • Ostheer flag SoE-Sturmpanther-
  • The British Forces flag CPS Make America Great Again!
  • Soviets flag CPS USE-M246
  • U.S. Forces flag CPS Bondage♂Sex♂Party
  • Soviets flag CPS Deep♂Dark♂Fantasy
uploaded by aerafield

Board Info

220 users are online: 11 members and 209 guests
Sully, elchino7, JibberJabberJobber, Stijndee, Heavy Sapper, Vipper, hornykettenkrad, GiaA, |GB| The Lnt.599, vado, Olekman
162 posts in the last 24h
786 posts in the last week
4153 posts in the last month
Registered members: 28648
Welcome our newest member, Stulceaq90x
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM