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Viable alternative to T70 as soviets

29 Oct 2020, 13:30 PM
#21
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25



Now remove the T1 part and you find what people are using vs Osttruppen builds.


Now now, Katitof stated that all 3 weapons are UP, yet you are telling me that people use them. I would agree with you on this. Every unit has a possible use ingame. Some are better, some are worse. It's about the composition. As far as I am concerned the support Trio might be the crutches needed to drop the T70 as jack of all trades. Worth a thought I guess.
29 Oct 2020, 13:37 PM
#22
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3216 | Subs: 1



Now now, Katitof stated that all 3 weapons are UP, yet you are telling me that people use them. I would agree with you on this. Every unit has a possible use ingame. Some are better, some are worse. It's about the composition. As far as I am concerned the support Trio might be the crutches needed to drop the T70 as jack of all trades. Worth a thought I guess.


Katitof is right, M42 suffers vs Ost T4 play and OKW T3, Dshka has the worst deathloop in the game and heavy mortar’s barrage is bugged so only autofire is useful. M42 and Dshka however are very useful vs Osttruppen builds since Osttruppen absolutely cannot clear weapons teams so Dhska is safe and M42 can keep early LV away and poke with cannister. They also allow you to delay teching up for some time to counter the early Osttruppen power.

T70 is not a jack of all trades, it’s the soviet faction crutch. Any build that doesn’t include it is missing out on a faction crutch and is thus worse in comparison to a build that uses it.

The real question is why are you discussing such advanced concepts with only 20 1v1s played as soviets.
29 Oct 2020, 14:00 PM
#23
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1514 | Subs: 3



Thank god, finally a constructive post. So the T70 meta could really be broken through by Build order changes? Who would have guessed...


Well, it wouldn't replace T70 meta, simply cause of how effective the T70 is at its role.

The T70 is perfect at supporting double Zis guns with its fast rate of fire and great AoE damage. Also allows your Zis guns to acquire targets easily if it goes into Recon Mode.

Compare it to a T34 which would come 4 minutes later if you skip the T70 (and kept map control). It has less reliable AI and no recon mode. You get better HP and armor in return (but worse mobility and a bigger target size and both a T70 and T34 will die to two salvos from double AT guns anyway). You get decent AT compared to almost zero AT from the T70, but it's still unreliable at best against other medium tanks, so most of your AT will still come from the Zis guns. You would get 7 men Cons earlier, which is actually the best argument for rushing T4, but overall I wouldn't say it's worth the risk. Getting a T70 only delays a T34 by 3 minutes anyway.

There's an exception though. If your opponent is really overinvested into light vehicles and you have no issue keeping up with his infantry, a T34 will have an easier time than the T70 at hunting the vehicles down.
29 Oct 2020, 14:15 PM
#24
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25


The real question is why are you discussing such advanced concepts with only 20 1v1s played as soviets.


Because I like to and nobody can stop me. This is a purely theoretical thread. Just thinking about stuff. No more and no less.
29 Oct 2020, 14:17 PM
#25
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25



Well, it wouldn't replace T70 meta, simply cause of how effective the T70 is at its role.

The T70 is perfect at supporting double Zis guns with its fast rate of fire and great AoE damage. Also allows your Zis guns to acquire targets easily if it goes into Recon Mode.

Compare it to a T34 which would come 4 minutes later if you skip the T70 (and kept map control). It has less reliable AI and no recon mode. You get better HP and armor in return (but worse mobility and a bigger target size and both a T70 and T34 will die to two salvos from double AT guns anyway). You get decent AT compared to almost zero AT from the T70, but it's still unreliable at best against other medium tanks, so most of your AT will still come from the Zis guns. You would get 7 men Cons earlier, which is actually the best argument for rushing T4, but overall I wouldn't say it's worth the risk. Getting a T70 only delays a T34 by 3 minutes anyway.

There's an exception though. If your opponent is really overinvested into light vehicles and you have no issue keeping up with his infantry, a T34 will have an easier time than the T70 at hunting the vehicles down.


Very enlightening, thank you for your opinion. :)
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 14:23 PM
#26
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494

I did a bit of testing on Penals yesterday, and their combat performance at vet 3 is a lot better than I expected it to be. Unsurprisingly they don't beat Grens or Guards at 35 range behind green cover, but they're consistently able to beat 7man cons with 2-3 models left at that range. I think Penals would be a pretty good unit if they were made cheaper, had their early performance reduced slightly to ensure they don't walk all over Grens/Volks (Which they do unit-for unit, but are hampered by price), and had some sort of AI upgrade lategame.

My suggestion would be to give them an ATV-40 upgrade, combined with a model cost reduction, though I don't know if such a thing is really possible. No model exists, but the gun is practically identical visually to an SVT-40.

29 Oct 2020, 14:25 PM
#27
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 12:31 PMKatitof


Penals meta BOs also utilized T-70, because penals do NOT offer high firepower outside of early game, regardless of how many times V will remind everyone about their vet accuracy, their rec acc and fact others get proper weapon upgrades mean penals fall short in mid game BADLY compared to all other infantry units, including cons.

If you don't like being constested, don't post on forums?


I would like to contest YOU on this. I made a little experiment, duel between Grenadiers and Penals.

Following setups:

5 rounds of combat, both units in heavy cover, no LoF obstructions. Grenadiers all with LMG upgrade.

Long range

Close Combat


This proves you wrong. Actually, the opposite is true. A penal squad beats an upgraded grenadier at both long and close range when both are at vet 2. So I would say that Penals do scale into the mid-game quite well.
29 Oct 2020, 14:27 PM
#28
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 14:23 PMPip
I did a bit of testing on Penals yesterday, and their combat performance at vet 3 is a lot better than I expected it to be. Unsurprisingly they don't beat Grens or Guards at 35 range behind green cover, but they're consistently able to beat 7man cons with 2-3 models left at that range. I think Penals would be a pretty good unit if they were made cheaper, had their early performance reduced slightly to ensure they don't walk all over Grens/Volks (Which they do unit-for unit, but are hampered by price), and had some sort of AI upgrade lategame.

My suggestion would be to give them an ATV-40 upgrade, combined with a model cost reduction, though I don't know if such a thing is really possible. No model exists, but the gun is practically identical visually to an SVT-40.



Thanks for your thoughts, I would like to keep this on Build orders however. But we did a seimilar experiment with the same result. Which is quite interesting.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 14:51 PM
#29
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494



Thanks for your thoughts, I would like to keep this on Build orders however. But we did a seimilar experiment with the same result. Which is quite interesting.


Really Penals are undervalued lategame. Their issues stem from their difficulty in fitting into a build, due to having to build T1, and their early expense. This is coupled with their (relatively) high reinforcement cost meaning they bleed a lot.

They do in fact still output quite good damage, for no investment outside of MP.

Regarding build orders: Im afraid there's not a lot I can contribute, I don't play Soviet much. I would think integration of early ZIS would be helpful, it's a very powerful unit, though you then need a way to keep axis infantry away from it. (But if we're talking Ostruppen then that's not as much a concern.) Its barrage is ludicrously good against team weapons, and will provide a very unpleasant experience for static Ostruppen play as well. Early ZIS also means that Scout car play from the OST player is significantly blunted, particularly if you were to (somehow) have two in your build. This leaves you rather more vulnerable to infantry pushes however, given your then-inherent lack of actual line infantry.

The M42 would do the same job (And is used in quite a few 2v2 games I've seen), though the short range of the shotgun hampers it a little, and it's not ideal against heavier armour.
29 Oct 2020, 14:53 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16563 | Subs: 8



I would like to contest YOU on this. I made a little experiment, duel between Grenadiers and Penals.

Following setups:

5 rounds of combat, both units in heavy cover, no LoF obstructions. Grenadiers all with LMG upgrade.

Long range

Close Combat


This proves you wrong. Actually, the opposite is true. A penal squad beats an upgraded grenadier at both long and close range when both are at vet 2. So I would say that Penals do scale into the mid-game quite well.

Now try the same with LMGs, which grens will have after 3rd minute.

Also, explain to me why you have completely ignored this line:
because penals do NOT offer high firepower outside of early game

Early game means first 5 mins, where you have vet0 unupgraded inf.

If you are using vetted grens in "tests" but not using LMGs or 5 man upgrade, you're doing a biased test that proves nothing and doesn't prove me wrong, because it completely ignores what I've said.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 14:53 PM
#31
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494



I would like to contest YOU on this. I made a little experiment, duel between Grenadiers and Penals.

Following setups:

5 rounds of combat, both units in heavy cover, no LoF obstructions. Grenadiers all with LMG upgrade.

Long range

Close Combat


This proves you wrong. Actually, the opposite is true. A penal squad beats an upgraded grenadier at both long and close range when both are at vet 2. So I would say that Penals do scale into the mid-game quite well.


I didn't test at vet-2, rather at vet-3, where Grens won with a single model remaining rather consistently (at long range), so its interesting to see how they do at 2. it seems strange for Penals to beat LMG Grens at long range whatever the vet, though. That's kind of Gren's "optimal range".
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 14:54 PM
#32
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 14:53 PMKatitof

Now try the same with LMGs, which grens will have after 3rd minute.


Can't you read? He said this is with the LMG.
29 Oct 2020, 15:03 PM
#33
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 14:53 PMKatitof

Now try the same with LMGs, which grens will have after 3rd minute.

Also, explain to me why you have completely ignored this line:

Early game means first 5 mins, where you have vet0 unupgraded inf.


1. I have done all tests WITH LMG UPGRADES
2. I did both a test for vet 0, but also for VET 2, which is a MID-GAME situation.
29 Oct 2020, 15:08 PM
#34
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 14:53 PMPip

it seems strange for Penals to beat LMG Grens at long range whatever the vet, though. That's kind of Gren's "optimal range".


It was a close call, they are kind of even I'd say.
29 Oct 2020, 15:10 PM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16563 | Subs: 8



1. I have done all tests WITH LMG UPGRADES
2. I did both a test for vet 0, but also for VET 2, which is a MID-GAME situation.

Then try again, but this time use 1 penal squads vs 2 gren squads, which is realistic situation of your very own suggested BO.

You aren't going to get a lot of 1v1 situations, when you're going with extremely mp heavy BO that lets opponent have 2-3 extra squads over you.

The ONLY situation where penals can match grens or volks for numbers is if opponent just decides to spam kubels or caches instead.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 15:12 PM
#36
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494



It was a close call, they are kind of even I'd say.


It's... sort of understandable given Penal's greater cost, though Grens require the Muni investment to gain their LMG, and are really only effective at long range. Penals are an odd unit. I'm still advocating for ATV upgrades for them.
29 Oct 2020, 15:13 PM
#37
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 384 | Subs: 1

About the tests:
-Penals bleed much more, which is important because real engagements aren't supposed to end with a squad wipe.
-Grenadiers are considered the weakest mainline infantry.
-Grenadiers have very good team weapons supporting them. Penals require you give those up.
-Penals have much less utility than Conscripts.

I think, if you really want to avoid the T-70, you should make sure that the other units are on-meta. Conscript spam, maybe Shocks to make up anti-infantry capability. I would rush T4 in this case, and would consider T1 and the SU-76 to be wastes of fuel.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 15:14 PM
#38
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 15:10 PMKatitof

Then try again, but this time use 1 penal squads vs 2 gren squads, which is realistic situation of your very own suggested BO.

You aren't going to get a lot of 1v1 situations, when you're going with extremely mp heavy BO that lets opponent have 2-3 extra squads over you.

The ONLY situation where penals can match grens or volks for numbers is if opponent just decides to spam kubels or caches instead.


You're not arguing regarding Penal's combat effectiveness at this point, but merely their affordability.
Pip
29 Oct 2020, 15:18 PM
#39
avatar of Pip

Posts: 494

About the tests:
-Penals bleed much more, which is important because real engagements aren't supposed to end with a squad wipe.
-Grenadiers are considered the weakest mainline infantry.
-Grenadiers have very good team weapons supporting them. Penals require you give those up.
-Penals have much less utility than Conscripts.

I think, if you really want to avoid the T-70, you should make sure that the other units are on-meta. Conscript spam, maybe Shocks to make up anti-infantry capability. I would rush T4 in this case, and would consider T1 and the SU-76 to be wastes of fuel.


I don't think Grens are the weakest mainlines at all, honestly. They're very good at what they do, which is provide good damage at long range, with a long-ranged snare, and strong (but situational) grenade.

Personally it's a toss up between Volks and Cons, with Volks having a significant edge (Away from being the weakest) due to their STG powerspike, and Con's requirement to pay for AT and Molotov tech. Cons have the edge in Utility, and lategame strength, however. (at range).

I'd put Cons at the bottom, all things considered. I think they maybe ought to be a little cheaper, have an easier way to access their Molo/ATnade, and Penals should be rebalanced.
29 Oct 2020, 15:20 PM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16563 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 15:14 PMPip


You're not arguing regarding Penal's combat effectiveness at this point, but merely their affordability.

Affordability of unit directly affects its combat effectiveness, because in infantry case, field presence of a unit is quite important, cost and timing influence that effectiveness.

This is why penals are alright unit, but dead as meta one, while PFs are being spammed everywhere above 1v1.

Since you don't start with premade army matching opponents premade army for the pop and cost, but need to field it first, you have to take into account timing, cost and what opponent will have on field as well.

Penals will ALWAYS be outnumbered, they will win 1v1 engagements, but they aren't going to be engaging like that past first 2-3 minutes, because its impossible to field enough of them.

And, again, we've made a full circle, where T-70 comes to the rescue, balancing that out in mid game.
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