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russian armor

Viable alternative to T70 as soviets

29 Oct 2020, 12:10 PM
#1
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

Well ladies and gents,

I would like to propose an alternative to the T70 meta that has currently infected soviet play.

Now, please keep the following in mind before you answer:


The path I propose is a T1 opening with 2 combat engineers and 1 conscript coming beforehand. This gives us an acceptable amount of map control before bringing out 2 penal squads. So much for the infantry foundation.

Now, afterwards I think either a sniper is in order (if you are noticing a support heavy build, e.g. Ost) or an M3 Halftrack. The M3 might actually be more viable if built right after T1 construction.

Next up is T3 and here (as th title says) I would go for a SU-76. Yes, the cyka. Since the penal opening gives this Tactic strong AI power, there's no need for an allround unit. The SU-76 is perfect to deal with every light vehicle on the field in the early/mid game. The cons using an AT grenade will support this way of playing.

Infantry Heavy opponent


Then it is time to build T4 and get out either a T34 or a SU-85, depending on your overall advantage. I woud go for a T34 if you are ahead, since it's unlikely that your opponent will field a tank as fast as you. The SU-85 is more of a comeback option for me, if you are overwhelmed by an axis lategame tank.

To sum up the advantages and disadvantages of this approach:



This is not supposed to be a complete build order guide and far from Popcap. Depending on the situation and enemy you encounter various other units from doctrines can be integrated.

Let's hear what the poeple of this forum have to say.
29 Oct 2020, 12:15 PM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3220 | Subs: 1

CE T1 Cons Penal Penal AT nade Sniper Su76 might be the worst build order you can do as soviets.

There’s a couple people who still play dead T1 on ladder in lv17+, miragefla who is quite experienced, Rajan and Skeletron who go techless M5 with lend lease doctrine on top of M3A1 start. I don’t think there’s a sniper into su76 guy on ladder, since the su76 is pretty trash and the t70 is your faction crutch.

Only decent alternative is to stay in T0 with a cons build and an M42 doctrine and gather fuel until teching straight to T4 for a T34/76.
29 Oct 2020, 12:19 PM
#3
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

CE T1 Cons Penal Penal AT nade Sniper Su76 might be the worst build order you can do as soviets.


I think some more explanation is in order. Why do you think it's the worst possbile option? Tell me. Pls be more open minded without saying "people don't do this and people do that". I would like to remind you that HelpingHans brought us Ostruppen with a very specific tactic and it works.
29 Oct 2020, 12:21 PM
#5
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

1 conscript with AT nades is not enough for AT and 2 penals aren't really enough for AI if you don't go for T70.

What I've been doing is a Tank Hunter build as follows:
2x cons, T1, sniper x2 penal or 3x penal if sniper is not a viable option (vs Ostruppen for example)

Save early munitions for Conscript PTRS upgrade as soon as you hit 2CP (1x early and 1x later or 2x early depending on how the game goes). The cammo ambush can really catch people off guard and insta kill any Panzer2s or Flame HTs.

Depending on how the game goes, a T70 might still be required though.
29 Oct 2020, 12:23 PM
#6
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 12:20 PMKatitof
Have you ever considered why penal meta died?

(its because penals are not as great as some forum aryans want to make you think and people learned to hardcounter them badly).


Please keep in mind that this is not about penals or balance or anything. This is about discussing builds without the T70. This does not mean a mandatory T1 opening, that's just my post. Please feel free to propose alternatives.
29 Oct 2020, 12:23 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



Please keep in mind that this is not about penals or balance or anything. This is about discussing builds without the T70. This does not mean a mandatory T1 opening, that's just my post. Please feel free to propose alternatives.


I -REALLY- do NOT want to go there, but I don't think you have much credibility when it comes to coming up with meta BOs with your ranks.

Sorry, but soviet early game infantry combat being shit isn't going to be magically fixed by a simply BO change.
29 Oct 2020, 12:25 PM
#8
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 12:23 PMKatitof


I -REALLY- do NOT want to go there, but I don't think you have much credibility when it comes to coming up with meta BOs with your ranks.


You are not forced to follow or read this thread, nor have I asked you to comment on my ranking. If you are willing to contribute, please do so. If not, keep the thread clean and leave.
29 Oct 2020, 12:28 PM
#9
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

1 conscript with AT nades is not enough for AT and 2 penals aren't really enough for AI if you don't go for T70.

What I've been doing is a Tank Hunter build as follows:
2x cons, T1, sniper x2 penal or 3x penal if sniper is not a viable option (vs Ostruppen for example)

Save early munitions for Conscript PTRS upgrade as soon as you hit 2CP (1x early and 1x later or 2x early depending on how the game goes). The cammo ambush can really catch people off guard and insta kill any Panzer2s or Flame HTs.

Depending on how the game goes, a T70 might still be required though.


This might be a really MP heavy build, it might be a challenge to sustain 2 cons and 3 penals.
Anyway, my build does not have rely only on the cons At-nade. One extra penal with a ptrs upgrade might be a solution to that problem?
29 Oct 2020, 12:31 PM
#10
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



You are not forced to follow or read this thread, nor have I asked you to comment on my ranking. If you are willing to contribute, please do so. If not, keep the thread clean and leave.

I've already said why this is a horrible BO and if anything, it needs T-70 more then any other to salvage the game.

Penals meta BOs also utilized T-70, because penals do NOT offer high firepower outside of early game, regardless of how many times V will remind everyone about their vet accuracy, their rec acc and fact others get proper weapon upgrades mean penals fall short in mid game BADLY compared to all other infantry units, including cons.

If you don't like being constested, don't post on forums?
29 Oct 2020, 12:33 PM
#11
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3220 | Subs: 1



I think some more explanation is in order. Why do you think it's the worst possbile option? Tell me. Pls be more open minded without saying "people don't do this and people do that". I would like to remind you that HelpingHans brought us Ostruppen with a very specific tactic and it works.


HelpingHans was a top 3 player and won a major 1v1 tournament. Not sure why you bring him up to support this proposed build of yours.

T1 is a dead tier, you basically rely on your opponent messing up in order to equalize the game. You’re very far back in map control early and get badly outnumbered, Penals are 0 help vs light vehicles and with your build and a sniper after the 2nd penals that’s basically a sniper at around 6mins in while you’re dying to a flame HT and you get hardcountered by a 222 because your only AT is a conscript squad and mines. Also no zis gun cuz you went T1.
29 Oct 2020, 12:34 PM
#12
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 12:31 PMKatitof

I've already said why this is a horrible BO and if anything, it needs T-70 more then any other to salvage the game.

If you don't like being constested, don't post on forums?


I am here to be contested, that's the whole point. Post an alternative buildorder to overcome the T70. You are not contesting me, you are just denying my right to discuss things. Give us a possible alternative, if my BO is horrible.
29 Oct 2020, 12:37 PM
#13
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25



HelpingHans was a top 3 player and won a major 1v1 tournament. Not sure why you bring him up to support this proposed build of yours.


Not to support my build, just to remind you to think outside the box. And, as I've just said, T1 is not mandatory. Please feel free to alter that build as you see fit.
29 Oct 2020, 12:37 PM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



I am here to be contested, that's the whole point. Post an alternative buildorder to overcome the T70. You are not contesting me, you are just denying my right to discuss things. Give us a possible alternative, if my BO is horrible.


Are you even reading what is being said here?

YOU CAN NOT FIX T-70 ISSUE WITH CHANGE OF BO, BECAUSE ITS CORE INFANTRY ISSUE.
Both, penals AND cons do BAD in mid game for the exact same reasons, lack of sufficient scaling, where T-70 comes for help. If 7th man was unlocked for free at T3, or penals had weapon upgrade we'd have different discussion.
29 Oct 2020, 12:53 PM
#15
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2020, 12:37 PMKatitof


Are you even reading what is being said here?

YOU CAN NOT FIX T-70 ISSUE WITH CHANGE OF BO, BECAUSE ITS CORE INFANTRY ISSUE.
Both, penals AND cons do BAD in mid game for the exact same reasons, lack of sufficient scaling, where T-70 comes for help. If 7th man was unlocked for free at T3, or penals had weapon upgrade we'd have different discussion.


How about a T1 opening supported by the doctrinal dshka, m42 and the 120mm mortar? This would enhance both AI and light AT during the early and mid game.
29 Oct 2020, 12:59 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16589 | Subs: 8



How about a T1 opening supported by the doctrinal dshka, m42 and the 120mm mortar? This would enhance both AI and light AT during the early and mid game.

Ah yes, the trio of overnerfed weapons.

120mm is completely worthless, its much more expensive and LESS effective then T2 mortar.
M-42 is stop gap that works exclusively in urban combat doc, because of shocks doing heavy AI lifting.
DSHKa, while effective, is so expensive that adding it to your BO means you are so badly outnumbered, it becomes irrelevant what it brings.

AT is not the problem of T-70 being mandatory crutch.
AI is.
29 Oct 2020, 13:09 PM
#17
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3220 | Subs: 1



How about a T1 opening supported by the doctrinal dshka, m42 and the 120mm mortar? This would enhance both AI and light AT during the early and mid game.


Now remove the T1 part and you find what people are using vs Osttruppen builds.
29 Oct 2020, 13:13 PM
#18
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1541 | Subs: 3

Just do a simple 4 Conscript build with T2. Then let those Conscripts scale by dropping SVT's or rushing T4 for 7 men upgrade. Substitute the T70 with either a Guard squad, DshK or Quad.

Riskier option is a T1 build with double Shocks and double M-42 straight into T4. Needs a lot of skill to get enough value out of Penals and Shocks without bleeding needlessly. Also need very good M-42 usage to not get overrun by vehicles or tanks, always use camo for better rof and pen. If done well you can exert a lot of pressure without the need of a T70. Here's Kimbo doing it with varying results against a top 3 player: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqem7yAThx0
29 Oct 2020, 13:18 PM
#19
avatar of HauptmannWolfMann

Posts: 6

Bruh this is cringe
29 Oct 2020, 13:24 PM
#20
avatar of KilroyWasHere

Posts: 25

Just do a simple 4 Conscript build with T2. Then let those Conscripts scale by dropping SVT's or rushing T4 for 7 men upgrade. Substitute the T70 with either a Guard squad, DshK or Quad.

Riskier option is a T1 build with double Shocks and double M-42 straight into T4. Needs a lot of skill to get enough value out of Penals and Shocks without bleeding needlessly. Also need very good M-42 usage to not get overrun by vehicles or tanks, always use camo for better rof and pen. If done well you can exert a lot of pressure without the need of a T70. Here's Kimbo doing it with varying results against a top 3 player: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqem7yAThx0


Thank god, finally a constructive post. So the T70 meta could really be broken through by Build order changes? Who would have guessed...
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