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Why Soviets are OP

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27 Sep 2020, 19:19 PM
#241
avatar of Zzoner

Posts: 52







Not quite, as ppl shown in this thread you need more than one ostwind to do the same aa as one quad, so they don’t perform similarly. I claim that you need a lot of resources to get multiple units (be it flak emplacements, ostwinds etc) to get same AA capabilities.

Of course you get alot of value in durability and direct field presence, but in teamgames lategame you mostly need the AA since durability and AI comes from more durable units. You can’t get that easily as an M5. As soviets, you can choose the AA role only and pay as such; for other armies you pay for sonething you need bundled with something you don’t but forced to pay for.

Obviously the quad can’t reinforce, but vanilla M5 can. There is huge relevance for the unit even with toned down AA. The quad upgrade should bring an AA capability in line with other AA units, especially for such a cheap priced unit that can easily fit in army comb.
27 Sep 2020, 19:22 PM
#242
avatar of Zzoner

Posts: 52

27 Sep 2020, 19:32 PM
#243
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


at any rate it sounds more like you have an issue with the mechanic that AA relies, which may do, there was a mod or a discussion a wys back about making it something more realistic, with armour valuse and health on planes instead of just RNG. perhaps that would be a more productive avenue to explore instead of trying to nuke an exclusive hard counter out of the game because it does its job... .


I do, but its not my point.

Here is where problem lies, it feels like a lot of ppl, including you, sees any kind of nerf as a "nuke". Lets say any other AA unit requares around 4-5 seconds of attacking the plane, while Quad requares ~1 second, why it cant be toned down to be ~2-3 seconds? It still would be x2 better then any other AA unit, without being ridiculous. Thats my point, and I thought that was oblivious.

Even if an army has a single AA unit, even if its not the cheapest one and fastest one, this still dosent justify it being broken in its perfomance. And it is broken in AA, there is no point arguing with that.

Nothing in M5 justifies its capacity to solely counter 200+ mini abilities, without them even delivering at least some damage, by staying AFK and not even controlling M5.

It can be strong, it can best but in a sane way.
27 Sep 2020, 20:21 PM
#244
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I do, but its not my point.

Here is where problem lies, it feels like a lot of ppl, including you, sees any kind of nerf as a "nuke". Lets say any other AA unit requares around 4-5 seconds of attacking the plane, while Quad requares ~1 second, why it cant be toned down to be ~2-3 seconds? It still would be x2 better then any other AA unit, without being ridiculous. Thats my point, and I thought that was oblivious.

Even if an army has a single AA unit, even if its not the cheapest one and fastest one, this still dosent justify it being broken in its perfomance. And it is broken in AA, there is no point arguing with that.

Nothing in M5 justifies its capacity to solely counter 200+ mini abilities, without them even delivering at least some damage, by staying AFK and not even controlling M5.

It can be strong, it can best but in a sane way.


perhaps i misread your tone. it read as "other AA cant shoot down planes so the quad shouldnt either"

also the quad itself costs half as much as those 200mu abilities and takes up pop cap, if buying upgrading and positioning is afking and not even controlling idk what clicking twice and having the planes obliterate enemy infantry or armour is. and it remains that the quad is the easiest of all AA platforms to remove from play, especially since by design it reduces the number of mines the enemy is laying.

until now there has not been a quantifiable nerf proposed aside from "it does and it shouldnt" now that we have a direction we have a discussion. people, myself included get defensive when peopl broadly suggest bringing units inline by one metric while largly ignoring everything else. i remember when an army of quads couldnt shoot down planes if it was the last thing they did, and in the case of SCAS it usually was. there is no alternative for soviet AA. it needs to be efficient.
the least forgiving with absolutely no alternative or support is good at its job when compared to its counterparts isnt shocking... people use the same logic for the jackson, despite it also being the most forgiving and superior in every other metric...



jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2020, 19:19 PMZzoner
/quote]

27 Sep 2020, 21:30 PM
#245
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


also the quad itself costs half as much as those 200mu abilities and takes up pop cap, if buying upgrading and positioning is afking and not even controlling idk what clicking twice and having the planes obliterate enemy infantry or armour is. and it remains that the quad is the easiest of all AA platforms to remove from play, especially since by design it reduces the number of mines the enemy is laying.


Well yes, and at the same time its honestly feels kinda unfair to airbased abilities.

Speaking about single strafe leiter I can care less, considering they are cheap. Abilities like fragbombing and IL-2 bombing requre balansing asweel in my opinion, because they drop bombs quite far away from the targer so its usually impossible to deny them.

But abilities like CAS where planes are flying over specific area are easy to deny, considering that other circle base arty abilities, do pretty much the same and just as deadly, but they cant be denied completly.

This is my concern, some of the most powerfull air-strike abilities are un-countarable, while Okish abilities are easily counterable and all of them cost the same.

Its whole another topic really, point being at least other AA units have somesort of a gamble when you face them, you can try and use airbased abilities and maybe they do at least some damage, M5 in its correct state simply pretty much disables them, there is no point of using them if one is around.
27 Sep 2020, 21:45 PM
#246
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


....


That is an aspect you have to consider though. The pop cost of the M5 is only 5, and thats just incomparable to the centaur bofors or ostwind. In fact the only AA vehicle to take up less or even EQUAL pop is the 222 at 4 and the m5 is vastly superior to the 222 though proportionally more expensive.
In 1v1 where supply cost is a huge deal, the M5 quad is the single most pop efficient AA unit. That is more important then its ability to do other duties.
Put another way, if you could buy a 4 man squad for 120mp and 3pop that could minesweep, repair and cap but have no combat capability, would it be worth getting? Would it be too cost efficient for what it does? To me the answer is yes.
Not saying the M5 as a whole is overpowered though, just that its too good at AA for cost by a long shot. I understand that soviets have a lack of AA options-I main them after all, but that is not good enough justification for its current performance.
27 Sep 2020, 23:51 PM
#247
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2020, 21:45 PMSerrith


That is an aspect you have to consider though. The pop cost of the M5 is only 5, and thats just incomparable to the centaur bofors or ostwind. In fact the only AA vehicle to take up less or even EQUAL pop is the 222 at 4 and the m5 is vastly superior to the 222 though proportionally more expensive.
In 1v1 where supply cost is a huge deal, the M5 quad is the single most pop efficient AA unit. That is more important then its ability to do other duties.
Put another way, if you could buy a 4 man squad for 120mp and 3pop that could minesweep, repair and cap but have no combat capability, would it be worth getting? Would it be too cost efficient for what it does? To me the answer is yes.
Not saying the M5 as a whole is overpowered though, just that its too good at AA for cost by a long shot. I understand that soviets have a lack of AA options-I main them after all, but that is not good enough justification for its current performance.


the thing is though, it isnt going to be doing anything at all but AA. the 222 retains scout ability and if still armoud probably already earned its keep 10s of minutes ago when it was serving as a LV hunter/shcok unit for its timing. the quad has no such luxury. its the most cost effecient because thats all it is full stop. if there is a quad out it was a move to do that and that alone, all other AA from the 222 to even the emplacements generaly are built for more than just AA aas they bring more than just AA to the table.

you more or less created vehicle crews aside from wanting sweeping too and they exist.... without the additional cost.
every faction has a few boons and areas they are cost effecient in, the only AA the soviet can muster hardly seems an issue being one of those things when its so easily taken out imo. for example that 222 we mentioned from earlier can be used to dive and take out the m5 should the time come but i have yest seen anyone dive an m5, despite the similar costs to take out even something greatly more valuable like rocket arty.



Well yes, and at the same time its honestly feels kinda unfair to airbased abilities.

Speaking about single strafe leiter I can care less, considering they are cheap. Abilities like fragbombing and IL-2 bombing requre balansing asweel in my opinion, because they drop bombs quite far away from the targer so its usually impossible to deny them.

But abilities like CAS where planes are flying over specific area are easy to deny, considering that other circle base arty abilities, do pretty much the same and just as deadly, but they cant be denied completly.

This is my concern, some of the most powerfull air-strike abilities are un-countarable, while Okish abilities are easily counterable and all of them cost the same.

Its whole another topic really, point being at least other AA units have somesort of a gamble when you face them, you can try and use airbased abilities and maybe they do at least some damage, M5 in its correct state simply pretty much disables them, there is no point of using them if one is around.

stuka close air can eat a regular 640hp tank in a single pass and you would like the ability to prevent that to be up to RNG because it would be unfair that the player clicked 2 times while there was a hard counter around and stopped it?

it seems like your issue is more in the design of off maps and not specifficly the quad.

AA should by definition make air based abilities ineffective (thats what the AA stands for) IMO he AA of all factions shoulkd do its job and air based abilities should be the damage dealers and arty abilties should be the area denial type ones as there should be counter play present for the powerful ones. you wont find me defending encounterable abilities. quite the opposite actually.

ther should be no RNG involved with AA while there exists the ability to instantly remove a tank from game with an air ability. perhaps the required avenue is a toggle for AA mode with a finite range available on all AA units but having a hard counter not do its only job to make the 2 click no work abilities be able to eat tanks or pin all your enemies infantry is an absolute no go from me.
28 Sep 2020, 00:23 AM
#248
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


stuka close air can eat a regular 640hp tank in a single pass and you would like the ability to prevent that to be up to RNG because it would be unfair that the player clicked 2 times while there was a hard counter around and stopped it?

At the same time AT Overwatch from soviets can fuck you up even more, without any counter.
I dont see the problem why CAS can eat up mediums, or thundebolt can eat up hevyes if you stay under them or you got unlucky RNG. You always can retreat\move back your units (just as you would do if it was arty based ability). I dont understand your hate towards airbased abilities, honestly, but probably because I have different approach to all the wiping stuff.

it seems like your issue is more in the design of off maps and not specifficly the quad.

I've already stated multiple times, that other AA units while being effective still dont render all plane based abilities useless by mere presence.

AA should by definition make air based abilities ineffective (thats what the AA stands for)

Excactly. Thats what AA do against most airbased abilities. Aside from frag\il2 bombing, because they are too fast and deliver bombs too early, and imo requre tuning. But ones again, right now Quad is not only makes them ineffective, but completly un-usable. Thats is what my bitching about.


but having a hard counter not do its only job to make the 2 click no work abilities be able to eat tanks or pin all your enemies infantry is an absolute no go from me.

You seem to hate wiping with arty\air abilities so much. Thats probably why you love to see Quad having air clear in a seconds and want to see other AAs perform as Quad :snfPeter:
28 Sep 2020, 01:36 AM
#249
avatar of Zzoner

Posts: 52

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2020, 19:19 PMZzoner
/quote]

I disagree, an m5 parked near howitzers or backline targets (99% of the cases) will be very safe, and a direct threat which is a dive will have many more prio targets to deal with, allowing for a fast retreat. M5 isn't exactly slow. And it's much easier to replace.

AA power doesn't have to do with timing. The time where AA is needed is way past the availability of said units, around 9-10 CPs for howitzer protection and 12 CPs for the heavy hitting plane abilities.

I would also disagree that M5 isn't used as reinforcement. For double Soviet, without Urban Defense or Airborne there is always a halftrack to support. This is common in high ranked team games, and I am sure alot of people here can attest to that. None will make a short work out of it if safely positioned.

I totally agree with GachiGasm that it can still be better than other AA, but not by 1-2 orders of magnitude.
28 Sep 2020, 02:01 AM
#250
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 149

They are not OP, but they can be difficult to handle.

They have the best mortar, AT gun and in my opinion, the best AI unit in the game (Shock Troops).

Combined with the 7 man Conscripts/AT Penals, they can be very hard to handle. But not impossible, even 1v1 with OKW.

I have found if you can ambush their T-70 early and take it out with a double shreck and a faust, you've basically crippled Soviets mid game. They rely on it way too much. Often, I'll forego the Clown Car and opt for PG's because of how difficult it is to micro from getting snared by a Conscript Nade or AT Satchel.

Shock Troops really annoy me, even against Vetted Obers with an MG34. Unless you get lucky and hit a skill nuke nade, you won't drop their units until they get into optimal range, even if you are behind green cover and they are moving through negative cover. I typically have to use double Falls to deal with them.
28 Sep 2020, 02:35 AM
#251
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1


All other factions with all their other AA have alternatives or suplimentary AA.

USF has pintles.
OST has pintles and the 222
Ukf could build a bofors
OKW has free AA on their base, can build multiple 2cm pits and has pintles
Soviet can have 1 pintles on field max, and they are attached to the most expensive tanks in their entire roster AND are doctrinal, limited to 1.

ALL other AA is also more durable or survivable.
USF can disembark and screw up tracking (can also use this to generate vet for other tanks or give themselves a Vetted AAHT)
UKF centaur can bounce shots and has a large health pool making it impractical to dive
Ostwind can bounce shots, has health and has mobility
OKW has smoke and again that free AA on their base which can't be stressed enough as bonus AA

Soviet AA not only lacks durability it also lacks any way to escape from a bad situation.

I've also never seen a kraut mower used as a shock vehicle like I have for both halftrack AA variants (not since it got its mobile suppression and retaining reinforcement after upgrade removed anyways)

Odd for sure the least flexible, least survivable AA does AA better than any other. We should definitely look into this more while complely ignoring the surrounding army and traits as well as the unit itself except exclusively its ability to do its only job.




The meat chopper does amazing damage, can fire on the move with high dps, has superb suppression, and has overdrive on top of already high accel and speed values.

You're acting as if its rubbish outside of niche AA uses.
28 Sep 2020, 03:03 AM
#252
avatar of NorthWestFresh

Posts: 317

Yes soviets op no doubt about and very easy, I they simply gave them too much, and not only that its not a fun faction anymore its braindead I think they really ruined the faction when they changed the teching making it so matter what you do you have all your bases covered. teching used to be a very hard decision and if you made wrong choice could leave you vulnerable now.... yeah braindead dont matter what you do you got everything covered and also way easy to just spam it thats all you do.

t34 are not as bad as people say they got buffed they can take on p4 just fine now so the 90 fuel is too cheap . all soviet tanks now too cheap since they easily beat axis armour the prices are not justified and price to performance ratio axis is in trouble.
28 Sep 2020, 03:40 AM
#253
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



the thing is though, it isnt going to be doing anything at all but AA. the 222 retains scout ability and if still armoud probably already earned its keep 10s of minutes ago when it was serving as a LV hunter/shcok unit for its timing. the quad has no such luxury. its the most cost effecient because thats all it is full stop. if there is a quad out it was a move to do that and that alone, all other AA from the 222 to even the emplacements generaly are built for more than just AA aas they bring more than just AA to the table.

you more or less created vehicle crews aside from wanting sweeping too and they exist.... without the additional cost.
every faction has a few boons and areas they are cost effecient in, the only AA the soviet can muster hardly seems an issue being one of those things when its so easily taken out imo. for example that 222 we mentioned from earlier can be used to dive and take out the m5 should the time come but i have yest seen anyone dive an m5, despite the similar costs to take out even something greatly more valuable like rocket arty.



Vehicle crews is quite separate as their cost cannot be detached from the vehicle itself. Dismount the crew and your vehicle is useless until manned again, you have no net gain in unit count. But imagine if you could buy vehicle crews for 120mp and upgrade them with sweepers...


Now regarding the first point about M5 ONLY being able to do AA. I dont care if it's only able to do AA, there is a limit that it shouldn't exceed. If you removed the elefant's MG, it would not justify increasing its damage per shot to 640 even though the only thing it can do is anti tank. The M5 exceeds a potency limit for cost. That it is better at AA then 2 ostwinds which cost 4x the pop and 7x the fuel is a problem even if AA is the "only" thing it can do-which i don't even necessarily agree with in the first place.
28 Sep 2020, 09:34 AM
#254
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



While I agree that it's strong, it's a dedicated AA counter. Ostwind can take on light tanks and even finish off medium from behind. It's more durable and much better vs infantry (AA can suppress but weaker generally). I don't think I've ever seen the soviet AA doing anything but shooting down planes,


Against OST going for AA instead of T 70 is a viable option ( and even against OKW T1 ) . Soviet AA is frequently used to fight 222s ( also it has decent AI power ). So claiming that soviet AA is only used for AA purposes is not that true.

Also one needs to keep in mind that it is way less exspensive and comes way earlier, so of course it won't be able to finish off mediums
30 Sep 2020, 05:03 AM
#255
avatar of Dakster

Posts: 4

I find Ostheer with Pgrens counters Shocktroops quite nicely.

In a 1pgrenvs1shocks or 2pgrenvs2shocks fight:
Shocktroops need to close in to point blank range to win the engagement
If the Pgrens are not ambushed:

Shocktroops lose about like 35%(based on my experience) of their HP closing in.
A Bundle grenade in front of their charge will either have the results of:
1. Make them dodge backwards and take even more damage, so lose the fight even if they get to point blank range since at that point Pgrens great Mid+Short range dps will shred the Shocks to death. Ostheer wins engagement
2. Get hit by the bundle. Ostheer wins engagement.
3. Somehow the Ostheer player misses the Bundle Grenade. They lose the engagement which is the fault of the Ostheer player for missing the bundle grenade in the first place.

How to deal with Shocktroops throwing a frag/smoke: Just move back, Pgrens got better mid-ranged dps anyways, so if you don't get hit, you're still going to win the engagement.
30 Sep 2020, 09:31 AM
#256
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2020, 05:03 AMDakster
LOL


Feel free to test it with the CheatMod, because it is clearly not the case.
30 Sep 2020, 14:55 PM
#257
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 08:00 AMGiaA


What are these supposed weaknesses?

MANPOWER SHORTAGE, a huge headache for any SOV main.
30 Sep 2020, 15:09 PM
#258
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


The meat chopper does amazing damage, can fire on the move with high dps, has superb suppression, and has overdrive on top of already high accel and speed values.

You're acting as if its rubbish outside of niche AA uses.


And you are acting like it's way better than it is. All those things you said are nice, but you left out the fact that it's in Sov t3

By the time the quad is out and upgraded you don't have much time to use it for anything other than AA. But that's not even the main point here, the point is that Soviets have no other AA units at all. Pintle on IS2/ISU is the only other form of AA they have...

30 Sep 2020, 16:06 PM
#259
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Let me put things into perspective, Quad has more than double the AA fire power of the second best AA weapon and over 50 times more AA power than PzIV pintle MG.

Just because it "the only soviet AA" weapons it has not reason to be broken.
30 Sep 2020, 17:27 PM
#260
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2020, 16:06 PMVipper
Let me put things into perspective, Quad has more than double the AA fire power of the second best AA weapon and over 50 times more AA power than PzIV pintle MG.

Just because it "the only soviet AA" weapons it has not reason to be broken.


lol now the quad is broken. :clap:
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