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Why the hypocrisy over abandon RNG?

11 Sep 2020, 15:27 PM
#41
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

as a viewer, i like rng, i like abandon vehicle. They are so low percentage now, leaving it on will add flavor.

Live sports have rng, bad referee decisions, lots of variety.

esports have to be perfectly balanced logic outcome, depending only on your apm and build order? boring computer logic then.

and before you know it, coh3 will remove this mechanics, just like coh2 remove blizzard and heavy snow mud because some pro players dont like it....

i understand pros of coh2 tournment want perfectly expected outcome, so you are matched by your l33t mouse skills, it is fair on competition basis to reduce variables..

but the spectators of coh2 want more flavor, flavor they are used to or come to expect to have in coh.

besides abandon vehicles take a long time to repair now
11 Sep 2020, 18:06 PM
#42
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Does the community have the resources to allow tournaments to choose their own rules? Can some tournaments choose to have RNG, and some don't? I can understand if the players want as little RNG as possible, but I feel that tournaments with more RNG would attract more viewers.
11 Sep 2020, 19:01 PM
#43
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2020, 18:06 PMSpoof
Does the community have the resources to allow tournaments to choose their own rules? Can some tournaments choose to have RNG, and some don't? I can understand if the players want as little RNG as possible, but I feel that tournaments with more RNG would attract more viewers.


Again, it's not about having little RNG. It's about having game deciding RNG tied to low percentage of occurrence + almost no player input involved.

Even in something which is exclusively RNG as card games such as Hearthstone, they moved from over the top RNG cards like Yogg Saron been viable in favour of a bit more control in how wide the RNG can be (discover mechanic).

Regarding viewers and more discruptive RNG i beg to differ based on popularity across the whole Esport scene.

FPS: CS GO, Rainbow 6, Valorant, OW, CoD
Fighting: SF, Tekken, Smash (never played with items)
MOBAs: DOTA, LOL and all other smaller scenes.
Sports: From racing to football or something like Rocket League.
RTS: SC2, WC3, AoE2
TPS: Fortnite/Pubg
Other: WoT/HS.

11 Sep 2020, 19:24 PM
#44
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

I'm fine with RNG and abandoned tanks, it makes the game more unique and more fun. It's not just clicks and timing, but also risk. And I hope if CoH3 arrives and it is a decent game, the abandoned tanks will still be there.
11 Sep 2020, 20:23 PM
#45
avatar of swiffy

Posts: 124

I like RNG when it's good for me and I dislike it when it's bad for me.
11 Sep 2020, 20:34 PM
#46
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2020, 15:27 PMmrgame2
as a viewer, i like rng, i like abandon vehicle. They are so low percentage now, leaving it on will add flavor.

Live sports have rng, bad referee decisions, lots of variety.


Its not a flavor its a gimmic which might give you win\lose based on the dice roll, without any controll.

Competitive games do have RNGs in it, depending on the title. But you know what the difference between good and bad RNG model? Predictability.

Poker is totaly RNG game it its basics, but its still competitive, because you can predict what your opponent might have\what cards might be on the table and so on.

Any digital card games, if they are done right follow the same model, where you can predict what cards you might get based on cards already in your hand.

CoH2 excample. Out-of-control shooting. There are 3 possible outcomes, lets say they all have same chances of happening. You know that out-of-contol is common. Based on it, you can continue moving when you see out-of-contol or continue circle around enemy tank.

Abandon very rare mechanic, becased on nothing, cant be predicted, cant be countered, cant be prevented. In non-ideal situation, yes, it has no impact. In ideal behind front line situations it can cost you game.
11 Sep 2020, 22:34 PM
#47
avatar of Hater

Posts: 493

Have read 1st page... damn, remove bounces and misses too please. A sterile game = e-sports ready game!!1
12 Sep 2020, 04:30 AM
#48
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



Its not a flavor its a gimmic which might give you win\lose based on the dice roll, without any controll.

Competitive games do have RNGs in it, depending on the title. But you know what the difference between good and bad RNG model? Predictability.

Poker is totaly RNG game it its basics, but its still competitive, because you can predict what your opponent might have\what cards might be on the table and so on.

Any digital card games, if they are done right follow the same model, where you can predict what cards you might get based on cards already in your hand.

CoH2 excample. Out-of-control shooting. There are 3 possible outcomes, lets say they all have same chances of happening. You know that out-of-contol is common. Based on it, you can continue moving when you see out-of-contol or continue circle around enemy tank.

Abandon very rare mechanic, becased on nothing, cant be predicted, cant be countered, cant be prevented. In non-ideal situation, yes, it has no impact. In ideal behind front line situations it can cost you game.


can you predict RNG is live sports? /boom ;)

Abandon can be countered because it is rare, takes a LONG time to repair now.
Abandon in front lines, you take the risk reward of a dive, you probably have support of AT behind your dive. Kill it before it get repair.

Anyway the players in this competition dont want abandon, thats their choice, you watch it or not, thats that.

But i as specctators, non-pro players, appreciate abandon, a new mechanics in Coh2 and should be retain. We already lost weather mechanics, killed without even an attempt to fine tune.

Relic if you reading this, please dont make the game just for the top50 players as in patching it out later or in coh3.
12 Sep 2020, 04:33 AM
#49
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2020, 22:34 PMHater
Have read 1st page... damn, remove bounces and misses too please. A sterile game = e-sports ready game!!1


Yap!

We already shifting Coh2 in this way, as the asymmetry mechanics are tuned to feel more and more mirror copy. The TTK is lowered. The action relies more on higher apm.

Coh3 = 100% eports ready = no more money to relic

Relic attempted esports with Dow3, how did that hepled? :oops:
12 Sep 2020, 05:19 AM
#50
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

...


+1

It's all about implementation. For example, concept wise, Blizzard was an interesting mechanic badly implemented. It was both poorly balanced and had little to no interaction between player and effect. Including ice and deep snow.
I had written in the past how i would had like to see it been reworked at the time but that's chat for another thread.


In regards to abandoned vehicles, this is what i had thought it should be. This also changes current wreckage mechanics.


-If a vehicle dies at perfect 0 HP, then the wreckage HP value is 100% and it's value it's equal to the original vehicles HP. Right now it's always 50% (which screws with scavenge mechanics, specially after the nerf).
If possible, excess damage over the 0HP mark, translates directly 1:1 towards the HP value of the wreckage. Say a Cromwell at 160HP get's hit by a pak43 (320dmg), then it will die and the wreckage value will be set at 480HP.

-Abandoned vehicles are a special type of wreckage. There's 3 types, light car, light tank and the rest (medium/heavies). Artillery vehicles can't be abandoned.
For scavenge mechanics, they are considered to always be at 100% value, regardless of HP value. Light tanks and cars behave exactly as like now (neutral 1% HP vehicle) which can be recrewed at any point and cost nothing (outside of model count requirements). They will always have engine damage or worst.

-Abandoned med/heavies will always start at 50% HP. Armor value is 40 (small arm doesn't penetrate). Vehicles in this state CAN'T be recrewed. Once repairs get towards 100% the vehicle becomes the current model of "abandoned" vehicle at 26% HP. At this point the vehicle can be recrewed but it will still have both main gun destroy + heavy engine dmg (med) or destroyed (heavies).

-Abandoned vehicle is a death crit only produced by certain value of damage against specific targets. Offmaps of any kind, don't trigger abandone vehicle crit.

Light cars: only damage source with values inferior to 40 (small arm fire + far AoE from grenades or indirect fire).

Light tanks: values inferior to 101 dmg

Med/Heavy tanks: values inferior 160 dmg.

-Recrewing an abandoned vehicle cost 25% of the fuel cost of the vehicle.

-Increase abandoned chance to 25%-50%.

-Optional: anything above light tanks can't be abandoned in sectors which borders either base.

12 Sep 2020, 05:26 AM
#51
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

While this sounds complicated, the main idea is to give certain parameters as to how abandoned occurs, increasing the chances when this factors are in place.

It also increase the risk n cost vs the reward of higher value vehicles, as well as making them a bit more resilient to destroy.


Damage thresholds are there so units will definitely die when facing bigger targets or equals in the case of tanks.
12 Sep 2020, 05:30 AM
#52
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2020, 04:30 AMmrgame2


can you predict RNG is live sports? /boom ;)


RNG in RL sports comes from factors such as weather (rain, wind) with the equivalent on CoH been something as small as RNG on small arm fire.

Abandoned vehicle equivalent IRL would be like a football fan entering the field, wounding a player and that team no longer having any replacement whatsoever.
12 Sep 2020, 05:48 AM
#53
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



RNG in RL sports comes from factors such as weather (rain, wind) with the equivalent on CoH been something as small as RNG on small arm fire.

Abandoned vehicle equivalent IRL would be like a football fan entering the field, wounding a player and that team no longer having any replacement whatsoever.


i respectfully disagree at the example.
your example is more descriptive of a bug or something

abandon rng is whether a hit under certain conditions, will randomly give away the tank, not without some donwtime afterwards. we have to be clear.
if you control yourself not getting into those conditions, or see an openings to take the risk, or have a backup when in this situation, abandon is just as counterable.

spectator wise, this adds more unpredictability every game. we will cheer if tank got abandon and stolen to use against the risk taking attacker
competitve players wise, yes it adds stress on the losing feelings.

but i only play 2v2 rank 1000+.

thats my view, i think abandon now is at a very non critical game changer, but still gives a nice dose of flavor.

same thing, as AA gun shooting recon planes and crash into my healing spot, wiping my squads.

painful when happens, but i appreciate its rng because it can happens to both players
12 Sep 2020, 05:59 AM
#54
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794

It is rather subjective, but the main point is that out of control kills and abandons punish the player for calculated risks or gambles. Something which both the players and most viewers agree upon hinders tournament gameplay. Tournament mode seeks to remove the extreme cases of RNG, not the more regular ones. Having your tank abandoned in an otherwise calculated dive deep in enemy territory is way more severe than an infantry weapon drop.


i know pro players will laugh at what i want to say

but solo diving deep into enemy space with a lowered health tank, without abandon now greatly favor the attacker with 0% of giving the tank away, when abandon chances are already so low.

loss of flavor to the viewers. 100% esports outcomes are boring /shrug

but again, the participants all agree. im just giving another spectator view. Though im not sure most is how many?
12 Sep 2020, 08:43 AM
#55
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2020, 05:48 AMmrgame2
thats my view, i think abandon now is at a very non critical game changer, but still gives a nice dose of flavor.

same thing, as AA gun shooting recon planes and crash into my healing spot, wiping my squads.

painful when happens, but i appreciate its rng because it can happens to both players


Well, crashing planes had been nerf. AoE + damage has been reduce drastically and only straight accurate crashes are deadly.

And even then, it's not as game ending cause unless you have all your 1 model left squads bunch up, you won't lose them and you won't randomly be giving them to the enemy.


The problem is not that there is RNG. The problem are the correlation between the effects and the results.


You keep giving, sorry to say, stupid arguments such as lower TTK (which is the opposite as the game was more deadly on release), 100% outcome results or the whole mocking "esports ready".

RNG can both be well or badly implemented. If not we should just go back as to how the game was on release. Grenades randomly killing just 2 models or wiping a full 5 man squads. Flamer exploding after a single encounter in the game. Vehicles surviving getting killed because they would get engine damage, main gun destroy, heavy engine damage etc. before getting killed.


If you read my previous post, you would realise i don't mind that the game can throw you different scenarios players need to adapt. The problem is rewarding or punishing a player by NOT DOING ANYTHING to accomplish that result.

IF someone recons + Stuka dive bombs one of your units and the game 5% randomly rewards you with an abandoned is just stupid.
IF players have some certain degree on how, when and where an abandoned can occur, then it means they can make thoughtful decisions regarding those risks.
12 Sep 2020, 09:01 AM
#56
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794


IF someone recons + Stuka dive bombs one of your units and the game 5% randomly rewards you with an abandoned is just stupid.
IF players have some certain degree on how, when and where an abandoned can occur, then it means they can make thoughtful decisions regarding those risks.


Sorry i just dont like the state of esport vs live sport. but that is another issue

as for this scenario. it is not stupid. the opponents has to know to where recon + spend on stuka + that vehicle has just enough hp left to get that 5% chance? and then to recover the abandon tank. thats doing something from the opponent.

and it is like ..5%...
We have 'nerfs' with bigger percent points but still overly in favor as pre-nerf state, and that is considerd 'nerfs' balancing. this is not a sight against the balancing, but to say 5% is 5% really

abandon is no different from other rng in the game. you can make decision to further reduce that 5%, and that is thoughtful and planning from the other side.

other rts do not have even rng or any even.. so as to get certainty and 'fairness'. life aint fair, life has luck as hidden stats too :hyper:
12 Sep 2020, 09:15 AM
#57
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 208

You guys remember "Main Gun Destroyed" crits from CoH1? They were basically an opposite of abandoned vehicles from gameplay perspective - they favoured the attacker, because they allowed your deep-diving vehicle to survive with a sliver of health when they should normally get destroyed. From what I recall, it was almost universally disliked too.

My point is that it doesn't matter whom it favours, it's better if such drastic tempo swings are left outside the game.
12 Sep 2020, 09:18 AM
#58
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2020, 05:59 AMmrgame2
[removing abandon]
loss of flavor to the viewers


I'd say it's quite the opposite actually. Players will likely be willing to play more aggressive, knowing that there won't be a risk of extreme RNG that can unpredictably or unfairly turn a calculated action against them. Which will provide more and better entertainment value.
12 Sep 2020, 09:25 AM
#59
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1794



I'd say it's quite the opposite actually. Players will likely be willing to play more aggressive, knowing that there won't be a risk of extreme RNG that can unpredictably or unfairly turn a calculated action against them. Which will provide more and better entertainment value.


i have to disagree, viewers get 1 more possible outcome with abandon.

players can still play aggressive with 5% chance of abandon as they have been.

again this tournment the participants dont want abandon and that is settled.

im just saying it is not clear cut that abandon should be ...abandon, in future games, in future patches, in future sequel.

it is a mechanics, that adds more outcomes, and have been tone down and hardly game changing except for highest level of plays perhaps..

12 Sep 2020, 09:35 AM
#60
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

What I find interesting is how everyone is talking about abounded vehicles being captured by the enemy while in some cases abounded vehicles can be captured by the original owner.

Imo since participants did not the mechanism it is fine that it has been removed but imo the mechanism is fine and it should not be removed from the game.

The game in it core has RNG elements and that is positive thing about it.
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