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Why the hypocrisy over abandon RNG?

10 Sep 2020, 19:20 PM
#21
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



While this video covers a different topic, it talks about luck in a broad sense.
10 Sep 2020, 19:22 PM
#22
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



Tournament mod does also disable firing when out of control.


Thats what they said. But then it didn't
10 Sep 2020, 19:26 PM
#23
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1

Problem is abandon was a game mechanic on realease. It was much more common and happened much more often then it is right now. Thing is game worked differently.

Right now abbandon is a rare mechinc that was never removed because "reasons". You cant predict or controll it, it just happens.

I wont count situations where abandon happens in the middle of the map, because chances that you gonna get back\cap are quite low.

But for excample, If I want to trade my tank for a much more expensive or important target. I know that I will lose this tank but will be able to destoy enemy hight value unit.

And abandon happens. Behind enemy lines. Either my tank is abbandon now, or enemy hight value target gets abbandon and my tank gets destroyed.

Considering that abbandon is very rare, I see no reason to even count it as an outcome and do not trade off. But it still might happen. If it will then GGWP rng won game.

This is where the problem lies. Its not predictable and not persistent mechanic that can litteraly fuck up your\enemy game, just because it exists.

On the other hand out-of-controll shooting is persistant mechanic and happens quite often, I know that if I see out-of-countroll I should back with my low-HP armor or I should keep distance.
10 Sep 2020, 19:29 PM
#24
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Thats what they said. But then it didn't


I figure because of modding limitations it simply disables turret rotation which should prevent a final shot on target in 99% of cases, but it happened to align perfectly that one time there. Shit happens.
10 Sep 2020, 19:36 PM
#25
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1



I figure because of modding limitations it simply disables turret rotation which should prevent a final shot on target in 99% of cases, but it happened to align perfectly that one time there. Shit happens.


Probably because they made a mistake or OKW had somesort of the special death critical. All units on coh2 have special list of so called "death outcomes" which are the same across all unit types. For example all inf shares death from sniper state or gibbing from explosions.

Tanks have 3 death states I belive. 1) Regular death 2) Out-of-controll 3) Ammunition explosion (for WFA units\UKF).

This death states can include different modifiers and effects and so on. Point is, what they could have done - just make a maingun destuction a part of out-of-control death and problem would have been solved, but they chose to do something else.
10 Sep 2020, 20:18 PM
#26
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Could just make Crew Shock part of Out of Control so that the tank cannot do anything but crash.
10 Sep 2020, 20:33 PM
#27
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281



Of course they don't dislike it. That's because most likely they would throw a tantrum if their OKW P4 or Sherman got dismounted in the hostile side of the map. Let's be honest, removing RNG is basically being a little ****h about reality. Suck it up. Sure you can calculate pen and stuff like that but you can also calculate whether it's risky or not to dive with your tank/light. Is that also not calculable? Is it not calculable whether to risk your squad dying and possibly losing a weapon or should you risk a squad to get the kill on that elite expensive unit, or possibly not retreating when you hear werfer or stuka or katyusha? Everything in this game can be calculated to some degree, still it doesn't mean it's not dictated by the statistical distributions.



Maybe im a little bitch about reality but youre a huge bitch about competetive play. suck it up. and let the best player win a tourney and not the luckiest.
Yes all of those scenarios are calculated risks im either willing to take or not. When i take the risk of losing my vehicle/unit, i can either lose it or not but giving my opponent the same unit for free?
thats simply a risk thats created out of nothing that doesnt make any sense
do you want to bet 100 bucks on something and when you lose you have to pay 200? i guess not. or maybe you do and suck it up lol
10 Sep 2020, 20:33 PM
#28
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Thats what they said. But then it didn't

probably because the p4 (Kimbo vs Hans) was in heat shells doctrine mod.
10 Sep 2020, 21:28 PM
#29
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1805 | Subs: 3

Tournament mod does also disable firing when out of control.

I recall AE having a moment where a dead vehicle still shot during the last tourney. And he stated something to the effect I guess it does not stop ALL of the shots from firing. Like the mod was not 100% yet.
10 Sep 2020, 21:47 PM
#30
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1805 | Subs: 3

So you know, that particular game was statistical anomaly. No matter where I go, what I do, a random LeFH shell will land on me, and if that doesn't do the trick, a kamikaze plane will.

This is exactly what I am talking about. It seems like if your connection is too fast to the server, it lags behind and waits to hear back from all the slow PCs. Then all your shit gets rekt. The game is buggy as hell and unplayable for me due this code behavior. Most games it will not matter what you do, your shit will get rekt regardless. Until Relic fixes it (never) the game will always be a joke to me.

This is why I laugh my ass off at balance discussions. Who gives a shit if Brit IS has 10x armor if they get gibbed on the move outside FOW by mortars before you can even press retreat.

This shit was way worse in vCoh. And again, I was playing on LAN with friends. All on the same switch/hub. So there should be NO LAG. But ordinates would still fly around and follow you. And stuff would get rekt that clearly should not have.

Coh2 always seemed better to me. But it is only marginally better. And maybe it is because some days I get a slower connection so stuff plays out closer to what it should. Maybe I should add about 10 switches between me and my inet connection. Anyone know how many you can add before your 1500 byte packet gets rekt LUL

Either way, as I stated before, indirect and snipers completely ruin this game. So anything that removes those two things I am 100% for.

I have screamed since day 1 of playing this game "REMOVE ALL INDIRECT BULLSHIT!" Can the tourney mod do that also please?

I have done everything in my power to make the game better: maps, Celo, donations, etc. The rest is up to Relic and they do not give a shit about us at all. If I had the code for a week, I could probably fix 100 things and I do not even code C++ at all. But here we sit with an unplayable game for years??? Janne could fix it in a day tops.

EDIT: I currently do not have the game installed.
10 Sep 2020, 22:46 PM
#31
avatar of SturmTigerGaddafi
Benefactor 355

Posts: 779 | Subs: 3

Fundamentally flawed and toxic post, not to mention a complete and utter disinformation and nonsense.

OVERWHELMING majority of patrons, players and fans of ML have expressed their dissatisfaction with vehicle abandoned (and abandoned related) mechanics in competitive environments.

The ML organizers have acted accordingly and released the Tournament Mod (thanks wuff).

The general consensus is that ML organizers refrain from adding any game impacting (balance) changes because that opens a huge Pandora's box in a community where 99% of people can't balance checkbooks not to mention a 5 faction strategy game.

Bottom line. ML organizers didn't wake up one day and removed abandoned mechanic. It was overwhelmingly requested and welcomed change.

10 Sep 2020, 23:01 PM
#32
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

I forgot who it was but I remember a while ago someone losing a game in a tournament based off the opponent getting a lucky abandon. I would be beyond pissed if I lost because of that in a competitive tournament.
11 Sep 2020, 01:59 AM
#33
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1805 | Subs: 3

... I would be beyond pissed if I lost because of that in a competitive tournament.

See Vonivan vs DevM on Faymonville in a tourney when Vons OKW army got erased by arty near the middle house. As usual RNG is the only winner in Coh2 :foreveralone:
11 Sep 2020, 03:27 AM
#34
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

So for a recent tournament vehicle abandons were banned as in organizer eyes "it makes the game more E sport ready".

I can understand this, but why keep LMG or shrek drops in the game if you're going to do that? Surely a para squad picking up an LMG34 will greater influence the game than say a 222 abandoning in the middle of ATG range.

Same thing when Jaeger's pick up a few brens or penals an LMG42. Basically you're getting an elite tier squad without the risk of repairing and crewing a vehicle that vehicle abandons have with them.

Personally I don't see the issue with vehicle abandons, it's a game mechanic.

It's like this, say you risked a lot of resources to chase and kill an important enemy vehicle but instead of getting the kill it gets abandoned and your now in no position to finish it off. That kind of a middle finger to all effort you put in/ the risk that you took. Risk v Reward is a thing but when neither is in your control(to a certain degree that is) then it's a stupid mechanic. Weapon drops aren't really all that punishing.
11 Sep 2020, 03:32 AM
#35
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



I'm not saying a abandoned KT is equal to a dropped PTRS

What I am saying is for the average game, dropped brens/MG42s/shreks are way way more common and effect the game more than the odd chance of a tank abandoning in a secluded area where it can be repaired

Obviously not all weapon drops and vehicles are worth the same, a Obers MG dropped is worth it's weight in gold compared to a abandoned kubel in easy to destroy location. Just today I saw a tightrope game where he had something like 3 stolen Vickers K on his vet Jaegers... That's equal to a vehicle in power to me.

But my point is it's RNG effecting the game

if an enemy get's a weapon from your squad it's never insta GG for you, but if an enemy get your vehicle that can and is in most case instant GG for you.
11 Sep 2020, 08:49 AM
#36
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1499

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2020, 21:47 PMRosbone

This is exactly what I am talking about. It seems like if your connection is too fast to the server, it lags behind and waits to hear back from all the slow PCs. Then all your shit gets rekt. The game is buggy as hell and unplayable for me due this code behavior. Most games it will not matter what you do, your shit will get rekt regardless. Until Relic fixes it (never) the game will always be a joke to me.

This is why I laugh my ass off at balance discussions. Who gives a shit if Brit IS has 10x armor if they get gibbed on the move outside FOW by mortars before you can even press retreat.

This shit was way worse in vCoh. And again, I was playing on LAN with friends. All on the same switch/hub. So there should be NO LAG. But ordinates would still fly around and follow you. And stuff would get rekt that clearly should not have.

Coh2 always seemed better to me. But it is only marginally better. And maybe it is because some days I get a slower connection so stuff plays out closer to what it should. Maybe I should add about 10 switches between me and my inet connection. Anyone know how many you can add before your 1500 byte packet gets rekt LUL

Either way, as I stated before, indirect and snipers completely ruin this game. So anything that removes those two things I am 100% for.

I have screamed since day 1 of playing this game "REMOVE ALL INDIRECT BULLSHIT!" Can the tourney mod do that also please?

I have done everything in my power to make the game better: maps, Celo, donations, etc. The rest is up to Relic and they do not give a shit about us at all. If I had the code for a week, I could probably fix 100 things and I do not even code C++ at all. But here we sit with an unplayable game for years??? Janne could fix it in a day tops.

EDIT: I currently do not have the game installed.


Indirect should stay. I laughed my ass off after that game. I have absolutely 0 problems with RNG, sometimes it's against me, sometimes I'm lucky with a random pak howi barrage into the FOW and wiping some unlucky bastard squad that just happened to clump up as they were running.

It's all part of the game and life, deal with it. RNG in all it's glory should stay in the game. Tourneys? Would be more fun but still, couldn't care less.
11 Sep 2020, 10:47 AM
#37
avatar of Boz_Hower

Posts: 28

Well, then what's the deal?

So far there are 2 people who didn't like the change while the rest like it.

Vehicle abandons RNG still in regular matches so anyone who likes it is still good there while it is disabled in the tournament due to the majority of the players vote for it as SturmTigerGaddafi points out and I gonna assume not every one of you 2 champs gonna play that mod for breakfast.

And I don't know about you guys but the majority will make the rules.

And to be honest, the answer was already there when Sander first said the reason, and SturmTigerGaddafi points out it is the majority vote. Not really need an extended post than it should be that might lead to toxicity. I don't think there is any more point to just keep this post going.
11 Sep 2020, 10:55 AM
#38
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The tournament organizers and players didn't like matches being swung hard by a non-interactive 0.05 chance.

So they removed it in their tournament mod.

I don't see the big deal.
11 Sep 2020, 11:22 AM
#39
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I, for example, like that they switched it off in the tourney but at the same time I wouldn't like it to be switched off in automatch. It is just fun. I don't mind even losing because of it.
11 Sep 2020, 13:24 PM
#40
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 264

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2020, 21:47 PMRosbone

This is exactly what I am talking about. It seems like if your connection is too fast to the server, it lags behind and waits to hear back from all the slow PCs. Then all your shit gets rekt. The game is buggy as hell and unplayable for me due this code behavior. Most games it will not matter what you do, your shit will get rekt regardless. Until Relic fixes it (never) the game will always be a joke to me.

This is why I laugh my ass off at balance discussions. Who gives a shit if Brit IS has 10x armor if they get gibbed on the move outside FOW by mortars before you can even press retreat.

This shit was way worse in vCoh. And again, I was playing on LAN with friends. All on the same switch/hub. So there should be NO LAG. But ordinates would still fly around and follow you. And stuff would get rekt that clearly should not have.

Coh2 always seemed better to me. But it is only marginally better. And maybe it is because some days I get a slower connection so stuff plays out closer to what it should. Maybe I should add about 10 switches between me and my inet connection. Anyone know how many you can add before your 1500 byte packet gets rekt LUL

Either way, as I stated before, indirect and snipers completely ruin this game. So anything that removes those two things I am 100% for.

I have screamed since day 1 of playing this game "REMOVE ALL INDIRECT BULLSHIT!" Can the tourney mod do that also please?

I have done everything in my power to make the game better: maps, Celo, donations, etc. The rest is up to Relic and they do not give a shit about us at all. If I had the code for a week, I could probably fix 100 things and I do not even code C++ at all. But here we sit with an unplayable game for years??? Janne could fix it in a day tops.

EDIT: I currently do not have the game installed.


LUL. What's left of coh2, if you remove all indirect stuff? YOu have to make mainline inf clones of each other. No diversity at all. Why not make accurance 100% and make coh2 a Starcraft/Warcraft III clown.

IMO you are either the unluckiest person in the world or just a sore looser. In a rng enviroment anyone can become on or the other.

P.S.: Snipers are one of the most lovely units in the game. Everything thats not an a-blob of mainline inf, is a joy to play with
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