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Why the hypocrisy over abandon RNG?

10 Sep 2020, 10:51 AM
#1
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

So for a recent tournament vehicle abandons were banned as in organizer eyes "it makes the game more E sport ready".

I can understand this, but why keep LMG or shrek drops in the game if you're going to do that? Surely a para squad picking up an LMG34 will greater influence the game than say a 222 abandoning in the middle of ATG range.

Same thing when Jaeger's pick up a few brens or penals an LMG42. Basically you're getting an elite tier squad without the risk of repairing and crewing a vehicle that vehicle abandons have with them.

Personally I don't see the issue with vehicle abandons, it's a game mechanic.
10 Sep 2020, 11:59 AM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Abandoned vehicles are potentially way more game changing than a dropped LMG. Maybe that's why?
10 Sep 2020, 13:35 PM
#3
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1148

But you should not over reach your vehicles, it's standard practise to play carefully with units, vehicles included. But if you choose to be a bit risky with it, and don't have the means to finish it off should it get abandoned and you are unable to recover, basically you gambled and lost.
10 Sep 2020, 13:36 PM
#4
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

It is rather subjective, but the main point is that out of control kills and abandons punish the player for calculated risks or gambles. Something which both the players and most viewers agree upon hinders tournament gameplay. Tournament mode seeks to remove the extreme cases of RNG, not the more regular ones. Having your tank abandoned in an otherwise calculated dive deep in enemy territory is way more severe than an infantry weapon drop.
10 Sep 2020, 14:11 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

As long as player taking part in the tournament agree I do not see any hypocrisy. It is simply a matter of preference.
10 Sep 2020, 14:24 PM
#6
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

Preference it is, nothing else. I am personally a fan of all rng mechanics in coh2. It makes the game unique and adds some war-like unpredictability.
10 Sep 2020, 14:47 PM
#7
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

Preference it is, nothing else. I am personally a fan of all rng mechanics in coh2. It makes the game unique and adds some war-like unpredictability.


Sure it gives the game its flavor, but for tournament sake I'd say minimizing this kind of RNG is better.

It can really cost you the game, losing a P4 or P5 in a dive and end up fighting your own tank :/
10 Sep 2020, 14:51 PM
#8
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

what kind of troll post is this?
add up 15 weapon drops over the whole game and you migth end up with the same impact as an abandon ligth vehicle
Apparently you dont know the impact a light vehicle can have on the game in the hands of a decent player
10 Sep 2020, 14:58 PM
#9
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 208

A squad dropping a slot weapon is certainly not good, but it's not the end of the world. One player loses 40-60 munitions and other gains the equivalent. Although some weapons are better to pickup than the others, in the end it's not really game defining.

Having your vehicle destroyed is much more impactful than dropping a slot weapon, but it's still something you can come back from usually. But losing your vehicle and effectively giving your opponent one for free? That's a huge swing. It's like if during a football match, every time a team misses a shot on the goal, the referee rolls a d20 and on a roll of 1 gives the opposing team a point.
10 Sep 2020, 15:13 PM
#10
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Abandoned vehicles are potentially way more game changing than a dropped LMG. Maybe that's why?


I'm not saying a abandoned KT is equal to a dropped PTRS

What I am saying is for the average game, dropped brens/MG42s/shreks are way way more common and effect the game more than the odd chance of a tank abandoning in a secluded area where it can be repaired

Obviously not all weapon drops and vehicles are worth the same, a Obers MG dropped is worth it's weight in gold compared to a abandoned kubel in easy to destroy location. Just today I saw a tightrope game where he had something like 3 stolen Vickers K on his vet Jaegers... That's equal to a vehicle in power to me.

But my point is it's RNG effecting the game
10 Sep 2020, 15:53 PM
#11
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

The RNG mechanic is definitely welcome and should stay, even in Tournaments. I mean, accuracy is also RNG, penetration as well. Scatter in arty. Critical hits. Pretty much everything is in some way determined by statistics.

It's just watering down the game, removing drops/crits/abandons in tournaments. You were unlucky? Suck it up.
10 Sep 2020, 15:57 PM
#12
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2



I'm not saying a abandoned KT is equal to a dropped PTRS

What I am saying is for the average game, dropped brens/MG42s/shreks are way way more common and effect the game more than the odd chance of a tank abandoning in a secluded area where it can be repaired

Obviously not all weapon drops and vehicles are worth the same, a Obers MG dropped is worth it's weight in gold compared to a abandoned kubel in easy to destroy location. Just today I saw a tightrope game where he had something like 3 stolen Vickers K on his vet Jaegers... That's equal to a vehicle in power to me.

But my point is it's RNG effecting the game


Then you'd also need to advocate to completely abandon all tournaments in CoH2 because each hit/miss calculation is done on RNG basis.

Apart from that it is all statistics: Single dropped weapons are not a huge game changer. If you have multiple drops in the same game (so many incidents that it actually heavily affects the game's outcome), chances are low that it is always the same player drawing the short end of the stick. At this point we won't really see it in a tournament. If drops are distributed more equally among players, then it evens out more over the game OR it puts the player at the advantage that actually micros better to pick them up.

Vehicle abandons statistically rarely happen multiple times per game in 1v1s .Even if a game burns through 10 vehicles (which is already an the higher end of the spectrum I would say), the chance of getting one abandon is 7,5%. The chance for only one vehicle being abandoned out of 10 is 31,5%, so single abandons happen much more frequently.
If 5 vehicles die (very realistic in my opinion if not even slightly underestimating the number), the chance for one abandon is still 20,3%, so we can expect (at least) one abandon in every 5-game series.

An abandoned vehicle though heavily swings the game, meaning in EVERY 5 game series, 1 game might partially decided by RNG.

Obviously there are assumptions like every abandon is not destroyable afterwards etc, but that is just the statistical basis.
10 Sep 2020, 17:06 PM
#13
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4785 | Subs: 3

The RNG mechanic is definitely welcome and should stay, even in Tournaments. I mean, accuracy is also RNG, penetration as well. Scatter in arty. Critical hits. Pretty much everything is in some way determined by statistics.

It's just watering down the game, removing drops/crits/abandons in tournaments. You were unlucky? Suck it up.


Sure, missing a shot or not penetrating is also a factor of luck and randomness, but that can happen in both directions. With Weapon Drops and vehicle abandons this usually has a far greater and direct impact on the game than a missed shot. Especially when we are going for cash prizes we should remove the more blatant and potentially game changing RNG elements
10 Sep 2020, 17:08 PM
#14
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

The RNG mechanic is definitely welcome and should stay, even in Tournaments. I mean, accuracy is also RNG, penetration as well. Scatter in arty. Critical hits. Pretty much everything is in some way determined by statistics.

It's just watering down the game, removing drops/crits/abandons in tournaments. You were unlucky? Suck it up.


Speak for yourself!
I havent heard from a single tournament player that they dislike the tournament mod. We play tourneys for competetive matches and not some rng events deciding the game even tho that might be more entertaining to watch.
There is still rng involed as you mentioned but as opposed to those criticals that are removed by the mod, a player can calculate around hit/miss/pen rng
10 Sep 2020, 18:35 PM
#15
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1759 | Subs: 2

To me removing abandons helps keep snipers at bay. Next to mortars, snipers are the worst thing in the game. It is worth it to throw a vehicle to kill a sniper. It is still a loss to the vehicle player since the fuel investment etc.

Sadly I dont think the out-of-control dead vehicle killing sprees have been stopped yet have they? Remember vCOh matches where dead vehicles drove around for 20-30 seconds murdering with impunity LUL
10 Sep 2020, 18:37 PM
#16
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482



Speak for yourself!
I havent heard from a single tournament player that they dislike the tournament mod. We play tourneys for competetive matches and not some rng events deciding the game even tho that might be more entertaining to watch.
There is still rng involed as you mentioned but as opposed to those criticals that are removed by the mod, a player can calculate around hit/miss/pen rng


Of course they don't dislike it. That's because most likely they would throw a tantrum if their OKW P4 or Sherman got dismounted in the hostile side of the map. Let's be honest, removing RNG is basically being a little ****h about reality. Suck it up. Sure you can calculate pen and stuff like that but you can also calculate whether it's risky or not to dive with your tank/light. Is that also not calculable? Is it not calculable whether to risk your squad dying and possibly losing a weapon or should you risk a squad to get the kill on that elite expensive unit, or possibly not retreating when you hear werfer or stuka or katyusha? Everything in this game can be calculated to some degree, still it doesn't mean it's not dictated by the statistical distributions.

If there is one thing I have learned to not respect is people complaining about luck. I've had my share of bad luck, especially in university. Out of 30 groups of questions for the oral exam, I didn't bother to learn two which were hard but the possibility to pick any one was still 1/30. You need to know 2/3 questions thoroughly to pass which you pick randomly, so chances were that I pick one question 3%, and both, less than percent. Basically 1/30 * 1/29. That is a really low number. Guess what, out of 3 questions picker out of 30, I knew 28 and I managed to pick the two I didn't know at all.

Maybe a worse luck I've witnessed was when a person I knew parked their car outside, first time in ages, on the day the earthquake happened in Zagreb and the bricks leveled the car. He managed to buy another one, cheap one to get back on his feet (That was at the start of COVID-19 crisis in Croatia). Last month, he parked the car to go buy something for the wife next to the Church. On that day, the church bell decided to break on it's own, and it landed, again, on his car, smashing it. Only thing I know is that he laughed his ass off when he was telling me the story, witnessing an unbelievable stroke of (negative)luck.

Reintroduce the RNG into tourneys and maybe make the tourney fun to watch. I (really really) seldom watch any sort of video game stream, but once or twice I actually watched to see the strategies employed, it was clear that the 1v1 is boring AF. It's probably not for the participants, and that's great, as they are under stress of wining as it's probably one of their sources of income, but still, it's boring.

However, at the end of the day, I couldn't care less as it's only for tourneys. Just stating that luck is part of life.
10 Sep 2020, 18:44 PM
#17
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1759 | Subs: 2


If there is one thing I have learned to not respect is people complaining about luck. I've had my share of bad luck, especially in university.

Hold my beer....

Every game I play I lose squads to mortars. I mean the WHOLE squad immediately if they cross the FOW. Moving or not. While my mortars cant even wound an MG that is parked in front of it for 5 minutes. Statistically, my mortar performs on par with the enemy about 7% of games. The other 93% I will end the game with 0-4 kills as the enemy is erasing my shit off the field on the move with no sight. Fuck this game. Its complete trash. You can sit and pretend its a skill based game but it is not in certain aspects.

How was that? Is that what you were looking for :lol:
10 Sep 2020, 19:02 PM
#18
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2020, 18:35 PMRosbone
Sadly I dont think the out-of-control dead vehicle killing sprees have been stopped yet have they?


Tournament mod does also disable firing when out of control.
10 Sep 2020, 19:02 PM
#19
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2020, 18:44 PMRosbone

Hold my beer....

Every game I play I lose squads to mortars. I mean the WHOLE squad immediately if they cross the FOW. Moving or not. While my mortars cant even wound an MG that is parked in front of it for 5 minutes. Statistically, my mortar performs on par with the enemy about 7% of games. The other 93% I will end the game with 0-4 kills as the enemy is erasing my shit off the field on the move with no sight. Fuck this game. Its complete trash. You can sit and pretend its a skill based game but it is not in certain aspects.

How was that? Is that what you were looking for :lol:


Hold my bear.

It was about 4-5 months ago. 3v3. One LeFH on enemy team. Starts bombarding one spot of Port Of Hamburg (around bot munitions). I move everything out of there. Last two shells. First shell hits right between the two Scotts running away, damaging them both. I rush them to the base, last shell hits them on the other side of the AOE circle (above munitions first, below munitions behind the wall, 2nd), killing both Scotts.

Same game, I send my zook rangers to the front to scare away the enemy P4, as Port of Hamburg is a really lane-y map, chances are that you will hit something if you bombard certain points. Shells start landing, first shell hits and kill the whole ranger squad.

4 minutes later, same thing happens to rifles, also the first shell.
Again about 6 minutes later, same thing happens to captain.
We destroy the LeFH with recon + offmap.
Builds another one.
I send 2 squads of freshly reinforced rifles, in pair, to flank and help out a teammate. That LeFH decides to not bombard my middle lane anymore but to help his teammate, break the Brit line on bot VP. Guess what, 2nd or 3rd shell lands right between the rifles that were on a perfect position to flank
(LeFH high scatter was in his favor), wiping 4+4 models, forcing me to retreat...however, on the retreat, the plane crash kills them and my AA HT gained a veterancy 3 from that plane kill. (Shell landed around that green cover truck on bot fuel point).

So you know, that particular game was statistical anomaly. No matter where I go, what I do, a random LeFH shell will land on me, and if that doesn't do the trick, a kamikaze plane will.
10 Sep 2020, 19:11 PM
#20
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

7 years since release and people don't understand the difference levels between RNG.

As people like examples, here goes mine.

Every 45 mins, a D20 dice is rolled and if it lands on a 1, the game flips a coins and whoever wins the toss wins the game.


You could consider the example hyperbole and ridiculous, but that's the equivalent to what vehicle abandon represents.

RNG becomes problematic only when the outcomes represents a huge swing, counterplay is minimal and the instances of it happening are dim.


There's no hypocrisy, it's just you don't understand or value the difference between both subjects.

PD: out of control still firing i don't mind at all.
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