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Lower the price of the Stuka to foot or buff it

6 Sep 2020, 07:52 AM
#1
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 367

It has the longest reload time of all stock Rocket artys ( even Vet 5 Stuka has longer reload time than Vet 3 Werfer / Katjuscha ) , has less range than Katjuscha ( even vet 5 Stuka has less range than Vet 3 Katjuscha ) and about the same range as Werfer ( Vet 5 Stuka and Vet 3 Werfer appear to have almost if not the same range ) , it also has a way longer flight range than Katjuscha ( at least on Closer distances )

Yet it costs 390 MP and 100 fuel and even requires back teching Mech. Company in a lot of cases.
Meanwhile Werfer costs 365 MP and 85 fuel and Katjuscha costs 360 MP and 85 fuel .

So basically it is the most expensive non Doc Rocket artillery , but is overall the worst one.
Even the Flame rounds of the Stuka, which it unlocks at Vet 4 ( so already hard to unlock to begin with ) are a rather lackluster ability even though it has a hefty price of 100 ammo; you are bascially lucky if it even covers 90% of one Capture Point . The Firebarrage ability of the Soviets, which costs only 20 ammo more, is in comparison just so much better.

Then there is of course the most important thing about the Rocket artillery, namely its area of effect ( I suppose this is the right term ) ?

While every other rocket artillery covers a circular area the Stuka to Foot covers a linear one. This means that hitting anything but Support weapons or a Big blob moving throught a narrow passage is bascally impossible. But even hitting support weapons is hard against an enemy who has his headphones plugged in, as he just needs to move his Unit a few inches forward / back in order to avoid the fire. But even if he doesn't try to avoid the Stuka fire, then there is still the chance that your Stuka bombs will simply miss his anti tank gun by a few inches and cause little to no casualties ( A little side not here: I know that it is possible to tell where the first rocket will land, but against Soviet with their 6 men crews it still doesn't guarantee a decrew ( also aligning it properly , so the first rocket lands on the right spot is some extra micro that Pzwerfer and Katjuscha don't require. )

Sure, the Stuka has its moments too, for instance when you kill 90% a retreating blob. But In 99% of all cases those moments would have been achievable with a Panzerwerfer or a Katjuscha too.

So in conclusion: The Stuka is more expensive than other stock Rocket artillery, but is less powerful and even requires backtesting in a lot of cases.

So my proposals would be either:

- Moving the Cost down to 360 MP / 90 Fuel

or:

- Lowering the reload time by at least 15 seconds on Vet 0 and by another 10 seconds on Vet 3


6 Sep 2020, 08:12 AM
#2
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2488 | Subs: 4

has less range than Katjuscha ( even vet 5 Stuka has less range than Vet 3 Katjuscha ) and about the same range as Werfer ( Vet 5 Stuka and Vet 3 Werfer appear to have almost if not the same range )


That is a rather pointless comparison, as the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha are very ineffective at max range because their scatter increases with range, while the Stuka's scatter is unaffected by range. I.e. the Stuka is the only one that can actually make use of the max range, while the Katy and the PW have to be used from as close as possible.

On the point of making a complete and fair comparison, the things it does better than other rocket artillery are: not limited by long range scatter (can always be used from the relative safety of max range); can deal up to 200 damage per rocket to vehicles because of very high AOE penetration (albeit a bug/oversight); comes much earlier than other rocket artillery; very high AOE damage/range means instant wipes can happen quite often. Other things it does worse are garrison and emplacement damage.


I'm not saying I disagree that the Stuka shouldn't get any changes. I've proposed an overhaul myself in my personal balance changes. But at least make the comparison even for the sake of the argument.
6 Sep 2020, 08:29 AM
#3
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 546



That is a rather pointless comparison, as the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha are very ineffective at max range because their scatter increases with range, while the Stuka's scatter is unaffected by range. I.e. the Stuka is the only one that can actually make use of the max range, while the Katy and the PW have to be used from as close as possible.


I've been told that "good players" in team games prefer to fire their rocket artillery at longer ranges rather then closing in for the shotgun effect. Im primarily a 1v1 player where often it IS better to get close if you can, but due to a low amount of playtime in larger modes I can't speak for them. Can you shed some light on this?
6 Sep 2020, 08:46 AM
#4
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 367



That is a rather pointless comparison, as the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha are very ineffective at max range because their scatter increases with range, [...] . the Stuka is the only one that can actually make use of the max range


I see this claim very often, but in my experience this is not the case. While they certainly aren't as effective as on closer ranges a Vet 3 Panzerwerfer can still deal a lot of damage on Long Ranges ( Katjuscha on long range seems to be less effective than Panzerwerfer in comparison but is still doing ok ).

I now even did some testing with the Cheat Commands Mod II. A panzerwerfer on Vet 3 is perfectly capable of nailing or at least supressing squads on max range and can even get a decent amount of kills. So even on long range it can deny the capture of a point ( can't say the same about the Stuka to foot ).




can deal up to 200 damage per rocket to vehicles because of very high AOE penetration (albeit a bug/oversight);


I can not confirm this. I just testet this too in Cheat Command mods. A diret hit from a Stuka on a Panzer 4 top did 41 HP Damage. Mind you that only one Rocket will hit the tank. Meanwhile 2 Katjuscha barrages managed to bring one Panzer 4 down to 148.5 HP. ( 2 Full barrages from one Katjuscha )

Edit: Did some more testing with Stuka. Apparently it actually can deal up to 210 HP damage with one rocket, but the possiblity of this happening seems to be slim ( landed 8 rockets on tanks and only one dealt this much damage; in general they seem to do around 40 HP damage ( so in general Stuka to foot is far worse than Katjuscha AND even worse than Panzerwerfer ( Panzwerfer can deal 100+ HP damage on tanks ) when it comes to AT combat ( even if you get one 210 HP stuka bomb it is still only about the same as one Katjuscha )

Edit2 : Apparently one needs to land the Rocket a bit next to the tank to deal 210 to 200 Damage. GL microing that ...


comes much earlier than other rocket artillery;


It can theoretically come earlier than other non doc rocket artillery, but in most cases it doesn't, usually one gets a Panzer 4 first and then considers going rocket artillery. In a lot of cases you even have to back tech to Mech. HQ first making it even come later than other Rocket artilleries.


very high AOE damage/range means instant wipes can happen quite often.


I would argue that Panzerwerfer and Katjuscha still have a much higher chance of wiping whole units ( on close range they can get instant wipes too ) .

6 Sep 2020, 12:26 PM
#5
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1305



That is a rather pointless comparison, as the Panzerwerfer and Katyusha are very ineffective at max range because their scatter increases with range, while the Stuka's scatter is unaffected by range. I.e. the Stuka is the only one that can actually make use of the max range, while the Katy and the PW have to be used from as close as possible.

On the point of making a complete and fair comparison, the things it does better than other rocket artillery are: not limited by long range scatter (can always be used from the relative safety of max range); can deal up to 200 damage per rocket to vehicles because of very high AOE penetration (albeit a bug/oversight); comes much earlier than other rocket artillery; very high AOE damage/range means instant wipes can happen quite often. Other things it does worse are garrison and emplacement damage.


I'm not saying I disagree that the Stuka shouldn't get any changes. I've proposed an overhaul myself in my personal balance changes. But at least make the comparison even for the sake of the argument.


From my experience Katyusha is the deadliest (off all mentioned rocket arties) targeting retreat points with max range, especially after vet. Because it fires in salvos it does not have to time the barrage so precisely. On many maps (1v1) it can do it sitting almost in base sector. When vetted it is the longest range monster. Stuka has too big "holes" between the rockets. Usually it is much worse at dealing team weapons due to its rockets random behavior and the need to aim and time much more precisely.
6 Sep 2020, 12:49 PM
#6
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 695



From my experience Katyusha is the deadliest (off all mentioned rocket arties) targeting retreat points with max range, especially after vet. Because it fires in salvos it does not have to time the barrage so precisely. On many maps (1v1) it can do it sitting almost in base sector. When vetted it is the longest range monster. Stuka has too big "holes" between the rockets. Usually it is much worse at dealing team weapons due to its rockets random behavior and the need to aim and time much more precisely.


The stuka can outright destroy the team weapon so you wont be able to recrew it. So the wholes are justified in this sense.
6 Sep 2020, 12:57 PM
#7
6 Sep 2020, 13:07 PM
#8
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 367



The stuka can outright destroy the team weapon so you wont be able to recrew it. So the wholes are justified in this sense.


This only happens if you don't repair them. Never saw ( or at least don't remember ) that one Stuka shell decrewed and destroyed an AT gun which was at 60%+ health ( not crew , but weapons health ) . Also it is not like Stuka is the only rocket arty which can destroy damaged Team weapons

Edit: Just testet it. It takes 4 Stuka to foot shells to destroy one Zis 3 gun ( 2 to decrew ) . So basically 4 barrages are needed. Meanwhile a Panzerwerfer can decrew AND destroy a Zis 3 gun with just one barrage. A katjuscha can also decrew AND destroy one Pak 40 with just one barrage ( so 4 volleys ) ( althought it must be said that you need a bit more luck than with werfer in order to destroy it when it is on 100% health )
6 Sep 2020, 13:16 PM
#9
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1305



The stuka can outright destroy the team weapon so you wont be able to recrew it. So the wholes are justified in this sense.

Just like written above. It depends how much hp was left on a team weapon. The holes should imo look different. There should be a damage aoe spread but the whole line should get damaged. It is quite difficult to target with a stuka so it should be rewarded. Its range is also inferior to Katyusha so it must close in more. So if U get hit by a rocket it should deal more damage, but the "between" rockets units should also get significantly damaged. The whole thing should be balanced so that is not too much but also not too litttle. The whole "line" should suffer :) Now the differences are too siginficant imo between the units that stand on the damage line.
6 Sep 2020, 14:43 PM
#10
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2273 | Subs: 2



So basically it is the most expensive non Doc Rocket artillery , but is overall the worst one.



Damn, I must have missed the patch that allowed panzerwerfer, katyusha and calliope to pinpoint-accurately wipe pakhowies and mortars on max range in the fog of war when they have to finish their firing animation before packing up... same for HMGs and AT guns ofc.


Or which allowed them to arrive at the 7 minute mark like the stuka does.
6 Sep 2020, 14:57 PM
#11
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 110

If there´s one thing that should be changed without any complaints its the weird penetration on a direct hit.
6 Sep 2020, 15:21 PM
#12
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2273 | Subs: 2

If there´s one thing that should be changed without any complaints its the weird penetration on a direct hit.


as far as I know, a direct hit on a vehicle always deals 80 damage, compared to the 200 dmg near AoE of the rocket. Means a direct hit deals less damage than if the rocket missed the target by 1 meter.
6 Sep 2020, 15:27 PM
#13
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 367



Damn, I must have missed the patch that allowed panzerwerfer, katyusha and calliope to pinpoint-accurately wipe pakhowies and mortars on max range in the fog of war when they have to finish their firing animation before packing up... same for HMGs and AT guns ofc.



You get to whipe one squad accurately ( assuming it isn't a soviet 6 man squad ... and even 4 man squads can sometimes survive ). If you get to kill more, then the enemy didn't space them out enough , didn't pay attention and you also got lucky with RNG. Also since you mentioned fog of war. With Stuka you need to know exactly where the enemy put his troops ( with mortars this is possible, but not with MGs or AT guns ) . With Werfer you can just take a crude guess . Sure, you might not whipe the entire squad when its on longer ranges, but at least you get some kills ( also team weapon Squad whipes are still completely possible with Werfer on Max Range ) . With Stuka you get 0 when you don't aim it exactly where the AT gun / MG is.



Or which allowed them to arrive at the 7 minute mark like the stuka does.


Basically noone gets Stuka to foot in 1 vs 1 at the 7 minute mark. Even in 2 vs 2 you don't want to do this as OKW.

In fact it usually even arrives later than the Panzerwerfer and the Katjuscha since most OKW players tend to go T1 in 1 vs 1 and also in 2 vs 2. And even if you go Mech. Company into Panzer 4 it will still come later than a Katjuscha that arrives after the first T 34 and only about 1 minute earlier than a Katjuscha that arrives after the second T34
6 Sep 2020, 15:53 PM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2488 | Subs: 4

as far as I know, a direct hit on a vehicle always deals 80 damage, compared to the 200 dmg near AoE of the rocket. Means a direct hit deals less damage than if the rocket missed the target by 1 meter.


Only 40 damage. It's because the rockets have 0 penetration so on direct hits they will always "bounce" on vehicles (even an ambulance) and only deal the 40 deflection damage. AOE penetration however is very high so near misses penetrate anything that isn't a heavy tank's front armor and deal full damage (based on AOE). A bug/oversight in the weapon profile.
6 Sep 2020, 17:17 PM
#15
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 695



This only happens if you don't repair them. Never saw ( or at least don't remember ) that one Stuka shell decrewed and destroyed an AT gun which was at 60%+ health ( not crew , but weapons health ) . Also it is not like Stuka is the only rocket arty which can destroy damaged Team weapons

Edit: Just testet it. It takes 4 Stuka to foot shells to destroy one Zis 3 gun ( 2 to decrew ) . So basically 4 barrages are needed. Meanwhile a Panzerwerfer can decrew AND destroy a Zis 3 gun with just one barrage. A katjuscha can also decrew AND destroy one Pak 40 with just one barrage ( so 4 volleys ) ( althought it must be said that you need a bit more luck than with werfer in order to destroy it when it is on 100% health )


I have had it one shot my zis. The gun as you say probably wasent at full health. Its been a while back.

On the other hand i cant remember siz or pak being destroyed in one volley by katty or pwerfer, it could be me but i dont remember it happening. They only situation its possible as far as i can gues is firing point blank, well within range and being exposed.
6 Sep 2020, 19:43 PM
#16
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2566 | Subs: 1



I've been told that "good players" in team games prefer to fire their rocket artillery at longer ranges rather then closing in for the shotgun effect. Im primarily a 1v1 player where often it IS better to get close if you can, but due to a low amount of playtime in larger modes I can't speak for them. Can you shed some light on this?


It depends on what you're trying to do. If you're firing them at a specific target I think it's always better to be closer, like say a battlegroup HQ or squads on a point

But if there's no pressing target you wanna hit, firing them at long range on common retreat paths/base sector exits (or just right into the base sector) is common. With that many more units to hit the scatter can be beneficial

6 Sep 2020, 19:59 PM
#17
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2488 | Subs: 4

Also, the practical max range for the Stuka is longer than the ability cast range because the ability range determines the middle point of the barrage and not the end of it.
6 Sep 2020, 22:48 PM
#18
avatar of Grim

Posts: 904

For 10 fuel price difference you get the most reliable counter to team weapons in the game.

I dunno, if you wanted to change the stuka I think you'd need to make it more like the katyusha with less damage and random spread first then go from there. In it's current state adding anything else would much team games unpalatable.
6 Sep 2020, 22:58 PM
#19
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 159

stuka is insanly good, dunno what youre talking about.
sure you get unlucky sometimes, or an opponent thats very good at dodging them but when you seriously think its bad... well maybe you should blame the player thats using it and not the unit
7 Sep 2020, 05:21 AM
#20
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1072

Its already cancerus in teamgames what it actually need is nerf
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