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russian armor

Comet armor and abilities

4 Sep 2020, 10:04 AM
#61
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



wp shoot have 45 range and comet with tank commander have 45 sight. It simply not out range nor out spot Supported AT.


At guns only have a sight of 35. The comet can literally pop a smoke shell off before the AT gun even knows its there.
4 Sep 2020, 10:46 AM
#62
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



At guns only have a sight of 35. The comet can literally pop a smoke shell off before the AT gun even knows its there.


Yes, i did specifically say "supported AT gun". Taking out an isolated AT is nothing special.
4 Sep 2020, 10:49 AM
#63
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



Yes, i did specifically say "supported AT gun". Taking out an isolated AT is nothing special.


Most infantry have a sight range of 35 too.
4 Sep 2020, 11:22 AM
#64
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



Most infantry have a sight range of 35 too.


I think put the infantry in front of the At gun is not something require an insane amount of skill. May be im wrong here.

And a quick reminder that ost have an infantry squad with 42 sight range stock.
4 Sep 2020, 12:09 PM
#65
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



And a quick reminder that ost have an infantry squad with 42 sight range stock.



OKW on the other hand has't.
And even as OST you don't put your Pioneers in front of your Pak 40s



I think put the infantry in front of the At gun is not something require an insane amount of skill. May be im wrong here.


Since they are still outranged by the Comet you can just force them to retreat. Sure, you might take one or two Pak shots if you are not careful / fast enough, but the probability of both Pak 40 shots penetrating you at this Range is less than 43% so it shouldn't be really an issue ( against double Raketen your odds are even better, here the chance of both shots penetrating is even as low as 38,5 % ; not accounting the probability of the shots missing )

I think one of the Comets problems is certainly its no brainer upgrade which costs only 25 ammo, giving it 45 Sight Range. As far as I know no non doc axis tank, besides the Panther, the Jp4 and the Puma ( all pretty much only AT ), has a sight range of 45 or better, thus not allowing them to outrange infantry. The comet on the other hand ( and a lot of other UKF tanks ) get this ability for a laughably sum of 25 ammo.

4 Sep 2020, 14:15 PM
#66
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212




OKW on the other hand has't.
And even as OST you don't put your Pioneers in front of your Pak 40s




Since they are still outranged by the Comet you can just force them to retreat. Sure, you might take one or two Pak shots if you are not careful / fast enough, but the probability of both Pak 40 shots penetrating you at this Range is less than 43% so it shouldn't be really an issue ( against double Raketen your odds are even better, here the chance of both shots penetrating is even as low as 38,5 % ; not accounting the probability of the shots missing )

I think one of the Comets problems is certainly its no brainer upgrade which costs only 25 ammo, giving it 45 Sight Range. As far as I know no non doc axis tank, besides the Panther, the Jp4 and the Puma ( all pretty much only AT ), has a sight range of 45 or better, thus not allowing them to outrange infantry. The comet on the other hand ( and a lot of other UKF tanks ) get this ability for a laughably sum of 25 ammo.



the main point is someone said wp out range AT gun, which is not the case. WP dont out range At and comet dont out spot SUPPORTED AT. IF a comet want to take a wp shoot onto an AT with spoter, it will have to close in and take at least 1 shoot and the risk being snared is present. And Like you said, i can force the infantry to retreat, but have to take 1-2 pak shoot while, then im too have to fall back to repair. In that case, pak and whatever infantry have just push back a late tech 175 fuel tank, i count that a success.

since you mention the puma, it have 50 sight range and their AT gun have cammo(vet), can garrison as well as retreat, and they have further recon infantry option with doc. For ost, if you recrewed pak with pio, the pak have 42 sight.


4 Sep 2020, 14:24 PM
#67
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



I think one of the Comets problems is certainly its no brainer upgrade which costs only 25 ammo, giving it 45 Sight Range. As far as I know no non doc axis tank, besides the Panther, the Jp4 and the Puma ( all pretty much only AT ), has a sight range of 45 or better, thus not allowing them to outrange infantry. The comet on the other hand ( and a lot of other UKF tanks ) get this ability for a laughably sum of 25 ammo.



It is as nobrainer as the top mg upgrade that give you 33% more MG dmg.

Three UK tank have it are cromwell, ff and comet. In the case of cromwell, it is inferior to axis counter part on all other importan stat. On the ff, it still cant self spot. On the comet, event it can see further, it sitll get out range and out last by panther.
4 Sep 2020, 15:33 PM
#68
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

There is also sth not yet mentioned affecting the balance of the comet a lot. Many players don't realise it but it is an important factor.

What I mean is the skill level of the comet user. A good player will utilise the tank's extra abilities (extra speed, powerful offensive smoke, extra range, etc.) to their advantage. They will use the full potential of the unit realising it is just overperforming. On the other hand, an average/poor player will only use its main combat stats (armour, speed, penetration, etc) and won't be able to realise how powerful those extra abilities can be. Such players will often claim the unit is underperforming as they just can't use it.

All the above seem to have been affecting balance much imo. For example, USF was supposed to have really weak tanks but they were supposed to self-repair, be cheaper, etc. They got buffed and still players keep claiming that sherman is much worse than p4 not realising how much gamechanging a free crew, stock smoke and radio net can be.

Same here. There are people who keep repeating that cromwell or comet are weak while axis tanks are better. They don't realise, for example, that having a single quite potent stock mg without the need to invest 50 munitions into a pintle may actually be better. They keep forgetting about the price of more armoured/better tanks. Same people keep repeating that a doctrine smoke is get out of jail card while they get stock smoke in different variants themselves. Just really hard to comment. Just l2p. And finally start playing opposing factions. You will never get better with Ur favourite faction if U don't get to the similar level with opposing factions. There is a ceiling you will never break, no matter how much you debalance the game trying to boost Ur favourite faction. You will always hit the ceiling of the lack of knowledge on opposing factions on a given level.
4 Sep 2020, 15:36 PM
#69
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



the main point is someone said wp out range AT gun, which is not the case. WP dont out range At and comet dont out spot SUPPORTED AT. IF a comet want to take a wp shoot onto an AT with spoter, it will have to close in and take at least 1 shoot and the risk being snared is present.



The original statement was ( if i am not mistaken )


I'm pretty sure WP shells have longer range then ATG sight range


Which is true



And Like you said, i can force the infantry to retreat, but have to take 1-2 pak shoot while, then im too have to fall back to repair. In that case, pak and whatever infantry have just push back a late tech 175 fuel tank, i count that a success.


Like I said? I said that you CAN take 1-2 Pak shots if you are not careful / fast enough.
Also would you really have to retreat your Comet in this scenario ? The spotter is forced to retreat so the Paks have no way of seing you, so you can just WP them.


For ost, if you recrewed pak with pio, the pak have 42 sight.


Great. Next time I see a comet I will simply get my pak 40 killed and then recrew it with infantry ...




It is as nobrainer as the top mg upgrade that give you 33% more MG dmg.



And how much does it cost again ? Also the Panther needs it to have at least some AI capability. And it isn't even a no brainer for like half the viable OKW commanders. When you have MG 42 you can't have a commander equipped.


Three UK tank have it are cromwell, ff and comet. In the case of cromwell, it is inferior to axis counter part on all other importan stat.


And also costs 10 to 30 fuel less ( also its AI capability seems to be similar if not better to the Panzer 4s main gun and once upgraded it can outrange Infantry ... unlike the counterparts of the axis)


On the comet, event it can see further, it sitll get out range and out last by panther.


I don't really see a problem with that. Panther is more expensive and pretty much AI only
4 Sep 2020, 16:11 PM
#70
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


And also costs 10 to 30 fuel less ( also its AI capability seems to be similar if not better to the Panzer 4s main gun and once upgraded it can outrange Infantry ... unlike the counterparts of the axis)




I don't really see a problem with that. Panther is more expensive and pretty much AI only



I agree with most of what you've said. Only two things to clarify. Unfortunately the cromwell main gun is just worse then either panzer 4 against infantry, it has worse aoe and worse reload, though has the same scatter as the ostheer panzer 4, its worse then the okw P4. In addition, the combined(close range) dps of the Panzer 4 mgs(~28)is a fair bit better then the cromwells(~17). The cromwell fits ok in the British lineup and tech but its capabilities are pretty mediocre apart from its ability to self spot. Its ai is the worst of the generalist mediums.

Second, I assume you meant the panther is pretty much AT only- which I agree with.
4 Sep 2020, 16:40 PM
#71
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518




I agree with most of what you've said. Only two things to clarify. Unfortunately the cromwell main gun is just worse then either panzer 4 against infantry, it has worse aoe and worse reload, though has the same scatter as the ostheer panzer 4, its worse then the okw P4. In addition, the combined(close range) dps of the Panzer 4 mgs(~28)is a fair bit better then the cromwells(~17). The cromwell fits ok in the British lineup and tech but its capabilities are pretty mediocre apart from its ability to self spot. Its ai is the worst of the generalist mediums.


Thanks for the clarification. Was looking at an older version of this website and assumed that the values were up to date. Aparently they aren't. ( looked the cromwell stats up on an older version because on the current one you can not look up cromwell stats at all )


4 Sep 2020, 17:33 PM
#72
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



The original statement was ( if i am not mistaken )



Which is true


This is my bad, i miss reading and thought that he say wp out range ATs fire range. I think he was refer to the time when wp have 70 range.
stand for correct about it. Sorry.

Like I said? I said that you CAN take 1-2 Pak shots if you are not careful / fast enough.
Also would you really have to retreat your Comet in this scenario ? The spotter is forced to retreat so the Paks have no way of seing you, so you can just WP them.



To be clear, im not trying to put any word in your mount, sorry if i made you feel so.

Im taking your screnario and reply base on my experience. I tend to use tank very conservative in general.

Still, push back a comet with properly using of AT and infantry is possible i believe.


Great. Next time I see a comet I will simply get my pak 40 killed and then recrew it with infantry ...

Im pointing out the possibility. And keep at gun not having to recrewed from the stat to comet timing is rare.



And how much does it cost again ? Also the Panther needs it to have at least some AI capability. And it isn't even a no brainer for like half the viable OKW commanders. When you have MG 42 you can't have a commander equipped

And also costs 10 to 30 fuel less ( also its AI capability seems to be similar if not better to the Panzer 4s main gun and once upgraded it can outrange Infantry ... unlike the counterparts of the axis)


My point is the cromwell is a worse (cheaper) tank, so it can have a better upgrade, and the upgrade it self is not game breaking. A cromwell with tank commander wont suddenly beat a p4 in a 1v1, so doesn't the comet vs panther. It give an edge, but not nailed the engagement.


I don't really see a problem with that. Panther is more expensive and pretty much AI only

And im not saying there are any problem, too.
4 Sep 2020, 17:50 PM
#73
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518




Im pointing out the possibility. And keep at gun not having to recrewed from the stat to comet timing is rare.


Which is actually quite nice that you did it, since I didn't even know about this feature ( especially handy for the Pak 40 drop of the Osttruppen commander ).



My point is the cromwell is a worse (cheaper) tank, so it can have a better upgrade, and the upgrade it self is not game breaking.


100% agree with this one. Cromwell can and should have access to the Commander upgrade. And on the Cromwell it also isn't overperforming ( if it is on any UKF tank at all )

Now to get back to the topic:

I actually don't have any hard feelings against the Comet from an Axis POV. My position towards the Comet is almost completely based on my UKF experience with it ( except the aversion towards the "sticky" effect of its grenade, which is based on the ML2 event ) .

And one thing which also makes be belive that the Commet needs to be tamed down in some way ( not hard, just a little bit ) is the feeling / the fact that I barely see / chose Churchill over Comet. But this ofc could also be based on the Churchill Underperfoming ( which I am 90% sure it is not ) .


4 Sep 2020, 18:14 PM
#74
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212



And one thing which also makes be belive that the Commet needs to be tamed down in some way ( not hard, just a little bit ) is the feeling / the fact that I barely see / chose Churchill over Comet. But this ofc could also be based on the Churchill Underperfoming ( which I am 90% sure it is not ) .




The Churchill only have a 5 fuel increase and grenade move to vet 1. Which is not a too heavy neft. I still using Churchill in a fair amount of time since it is my favorite tank both in game and irl, and the fact that it come with my second favorite unit - myself (lol) - i mean heavy engineer.

The comet, in the other hand, have much more skill potential. While the Churchill only offer durable, the comet in right hàn can do a lot more. I have to say that i dont have such skill with the comet, but i know some lads have, i saw what it can do.

My opinion on adjustments to comet is stating with +5 fuel and no grenade.
6 Sep 2020, 17:29 PM
#75
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 877

How did I guess this thread would be asking for a nerf? What's the forum's raito now on Allied units asking to be nerfed vs Axis? 90/10?
6 Sep 2020, 18:11 PM
#76
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Sep 2020, 17:29 PMCODGUY
What's the forum's raito now on Allied units asking to be nerfed vs Axis? 90/10?


Nah. 90:10 was the ratio which describes how many Shermans one would need to match the AI capability of 10 Elephant tanks. The actual ratio of "Nerf Allies" to "Nerf Axis" posts is actually 100:1 , which is caused, as you already suspected, by all the axis fanboys on this forum.

I would advice you to stop posting on this pro-axis website and use your incredible unbiased attiude in order to write and release posts adressing the balance of this game where it really matters instead, namely the Steam Communityhub of CoH2
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