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russian armor

Comet armor and abilities

2 Sep 2020, 10:49 AM
#21
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2840 | Subs: 2

I'll be careful with any nerfs to the comet considering its history iver being stupid op or never used again.

The comet in my opinnion could loose the grenade ability and probably go up to 185 fuel.


I agree on the careful changes (especially since an overbuffer/nerfed unit could potentially never be changed again due to the lack of patches IF we even get another one in the first place).
But especially that price increase would be a quite drastic nerf, not a careful one. I recently player a couple of Brit matches, and the Comet is 165 fuel, isn't it?
2 Sep 2020, 11:19 AM
#22
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366



I agree on the careful changes (especially since an overbuffer/nerfed unit could potentially never be changed again due to the lack of patches IF we even get another one in the first place).
But especially that price increase would be a quite drastic nerf, not a careful one. I recently player a couple of Brit matches, and the Comet is 165 fuel, isn't it?


Im away from home but I think it used to be 185 fuel and is currently 175. I certainly don't remember it being 165.

Can someone do a quick fact check please but? Iver way, raise the price by 10 fuel and take away the grenade ability would be the way I'll go first.

Edit: I'll like to add the reason I think the grenade ability should go is because of its ability to fire smoke shells, it dosnt need both and I wager smoke round are more useful (if you want to knock utility instead of hard stats, get rid of phosphate rounds) instead of a price increase.
2 Sep 2020, 11:22 AM
#23
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 24

I played some Brits recently and was perplexed as to why the commander upgrade on their tanks, including the Comet, is still only a laughable "no-brainer" 25 munitions. Like come on - for better vision, on the move accuracy and extra vet xp..

I'd start there honestly. Then look at a minor relative armour nerf.
2 Sep 2020, 11:25 AM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13163 | Subs: 1

...
Overall I just think the Comet needs to lose its no brainer status, although I find the issue quite hard to nail down. Is it the armor? Maybe. The utility? Might be as well...


Imo the unit does not need to be so good at dealing with ATGs and thus requiring the expensive Panther to counter it.

Imo and since the MGs have been improved Comet should lose the WP and Grenade. This could be compensated by price decrease or something like a AP round similar to Pershing.

The utility could then be moved to Churchill that could get the WP round, have its smoke replaced with "commando" smoke providing cover status but not sight blocking and having its rear armor and AT capability reduced. Price could be adjusted.

That would create to paths. Comet for more AT oriented Churchill more AI/breakthrough/Infantry support oriented.

2 Sep 2020, 12:44 PM
#25
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1215

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2020, 11:25 AMVipper


Imo the unit does not need to be so good at dealing with ATGs and thus requiring the expensive Panther to counter it.

Imo and since the MGs have been improved Comet should lose the WP and Grenade. This could be compensated by price decrease or something like a AP round similar to Pershing.

The utility could then be moved to Churchill that could get the WP round, have its smoke replaced with "commando" smoke providing cover status but not sight blocking and having its rear armor and AT capability reduced. Price could be adjusted.

That would create to paths. Comet for more AT oriented Churchill more AI/breakthrough/Infantry support oriented.



moving wp to churchill is not a bad ideal, and the churchill already have grenade. What I dont like is the grenade require vet, it can be unlock with grenade tech in HQ and thing will make more sense, and grenade tech will be more attractive.

Reduce churchill rear amour will also be heathy, and i will take that change to move some amour from the rear to the front of the tank like 20 more so it will be 260.

Rear smoke dispenser can be completely remove, and replace by a standard smoke shoot like on cromwell.

My main concern is any attempt making comet AT oriented will end up being a panther clone, like, if wp and grenade is gone, then will the remain AI power of it worth to be consider a generalist ? The commet main gun's AI is still behave very strange to me i it AOE profile make me confuse.
2 Sep 2020, 12:57 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13163 | Subs: 1


...
My main concern is any attempt making comet AT oriented will end up being a panther clone, like, if wp and grenade is gone, then will the remain AI power of it worth to be consider a generalist ? The commet main gun's AI is still behave very strange to me i it AOE profile make me confuse.


Comet

The Comet underperforms in its role as a premium late game tank due to lack of combat scaling and weak anti-infantry capabilities outside White Phosphorus shells. These issues have been addressed with the changes below.

Manpower cost from 500 to 480
Scatter from 7.5 to 5.25
AOE damage from 1/0.4/0.2 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
AOE distance from 0.25/1/1.5 to 0/1.15/2.5

Veterancy 3 now speeds up reload by 20%
Now has Heavy Crush

comet

Fuel cost reduced from 185 to 175
Hull MG accuracy increased to 0.7/0.55/0.35/from 0.6/0.45/0.25/
Hull MG burst duration increased to 1.5/1 from 1/0.75 seconds
Hull MG damage increased from 4 to 5



Comet is decent. If there is a need a slight buff it could be applied.

The suggestion is to have both unit work as all around it units but one being superior as AI and other superior as AT.

Currently both eat PzIV for breakfast while both can deal with ATGs.


...

Rear smoke dispenser can be completely remove, and replace by a standard smoke shoot like on cromwell.

...

It is unique and I like it but instead of defensive smoke imo it should help the unit do it real design and support the infatry providing cover status would help the unit fulfill the infatry support role.
2 Sep 2020, 13:27 PM
#27
avatar of madin2

Posts: 197

The Come is fine at it is, its basically a panther with less at and a bit better ai stock performance but when the panther gets it's MG the ai performance are pretty much the same.
The reason we don't see churchill's anymore is because of the pop cap nerf.


I played some Brits recently and was perplexed as to why the commander upgrade on their tanks, including the Comet, is still only a laughable "no-brainer" 25 munitions. Like come on - for better vision, on the move accuracy and extra vet xp..

I'd start there honestly. Then look at a minor relative armour nerf.


I think the commander upgrade give only a vision range buff and i'am not 100% sure but the xp gain was removed years ago and the accuracy buff is also so tiny that i makes no difference.
2 Sep 2020, 14:25 PM
#28
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1215

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2020, 13:27 PMmadin2





I think the commander upgrade give only a vision range buff and i'am not 100% sure but the xp gain was removed years ago and the accuracy buff is also so tiny that i makes no difference.


As i remember form reading in the modding tools, tank commander give 1.1 accuracy and 10 sight.
2 Sep 2020, 17:37 PM
#29
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Yeah 240, my mistake. Regarding veterancy, it was the case when it was more expensive, with its correct cost, it provides as much vet as penetrating regular medium I belive.


Vet provided is based on unit xp value. Which is independently (though related) to unit cost. I don't think those are generally changed when unit values get adjusted.
3 Sep 2020, 03:50 AM
#30
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2020, 13:27 PMmadin2
The Come is fine at it is, its basically a panther with less at and a bit better ai stock performance but when the panther gets it's MG the ai performance are pretty much the same.
The reason we don't see churchill's anymore is because of the pop cap nerf.




I think the commander upgrade give only a vision range buff and i'am not 100% sure but the xp gain was removed years ago and the accuracy buff is also so tiny that i makes no difference.



AI performance pretty much the same?

Have you ever used/fought a Comet before?


Even back when it was not very cost effective, it was still better against infantry than a Panther. Since then it got a cost decrease, mg buff, and a main gun buff vs infantry.

I like the concept of the Comet as a generalist battle tank with lots of utility. The armour is probably the problem, since it has a high chance of bouncing AT gun, shrecks, and even Panther shots. Stugs and JP4 aren't going to cut it either, although stugs still get used cos they're dirt cheap. 290 armour is basically heavy tank level armour, but it moves like a medium and has war speed.

It can get a slight cost decrease or minor buff in other areas to compensate if we nerf its armour, but 290 armour on a spammable speedy tank really should go now that the Comet is actually good vs infantry. Alternatively increasing its cost by 30mp and 10 fuel would put it closer to heavy tank costs, which is where its performance is approaching. For reference, the Comet handily defeats 2 x P4, and basically trades HP for speed, making it pretty much a Pershing with a worse main gun but more special abilities.
3 Sep 2020, 09:10 AM
#31
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460




AI performance pretty much the same?

Have you ever used/fought a Comet before?


Even back when it was not very cost effective, it was still better against infantry than a Panther. Since then it got a cost decrease, mg buff, and a main gun buff vs infantry.

I like the concept of the Comet as a generalist battle tank with lots of utility. The armour is probably the problem, since it has a high chance of bouncing AT gun, shrecks, and even Panther shots. Stugs and JP4 aren't going to cut it either, although stugs still get used cos they're dirt cheap. 290 armour is basically heavy tank level armour, but it moves like a medium and has war speed.

It can get a slight cost decrease or minor buff in other areas to compensate if we nerf its armour, but 290 armour on a spammable speedy tank really should go now that the Comet is actually good vs infantry. Alternatively increasing its cost by 30mp and 10 fuel would put it closer to heavy tank costs, which is where its performance is approaching. For reference, the Comet handily defeats 2 x P4, and basically trades HP for speed, making it pretty much a Pershing with a worse main gun but more special abilities.


High chance of bouncing panther? At max range it's 25%. At close it's 10%. Those are not that high chances of bouncing, especially not vs an expensive tank. Point is, Panther wins vs Comet easily and can easily scare him away (like it can with any tank really). It's true that it's AI power is not bad. It's certainly better than Panther even with the MG upgrade (though not much). Panther has more HP, 30 less armour, and is generally the best tank fighting machine in the game, whilst being able to bleed infantry with it's pintle MG. Comet has more utility and better AI and 160 less HP. Also the MG buffs it received were mainly to deal with it's lackluster out of cover AI. Once there is yellow cover, all those MG buffs fade away.
.
It's got high armour but it's nowhere near invulnerable as you make it to be. It should only get a 10 fuel increase, while maintaining it's performance. It's not exactly spammable.
3 Sep 2020, 13:41 PM
#32
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



High chance of bouncing panther? At max range it's 25%. At close it's 10%. Those are not that high chances of bouncing, especially not vs an expensive tank. Point is, Panther wins vs Comet easily and can easily scare him away (like it can with any tank really).


Considering that the panther costs more fuel and has pretty much no AI compared to the Comet it actually is. And on mid and close range the fight between a Panther and a Comet can actually be decided by RNG, so it is pretty much only on longrange where Panther wins vs Comet easily and can easily scare him away.

Imo a comet should not get a price increase though ( tbh the only thing I really want to see gone is its "Sticky grenade" )
3 Sep 2020, 14:20 PM
#33
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460



Considering that the panther costs more fuel and has pretty much no AI compared to the Comet it actually is. And on mid and close range the fight between a Panther and a Comet can actually be decided by RNG, so it is pretty much only on longrange where Panther wins vs Comet easily and can easily scare him away.

Imo a comet should not get a price increase though ( tbh the only thing I really want to see gone is its "Sticky grenade" )


It's cannon has no AI (0.5) but once upgraded with MG, it's got 2 hull MGs + top gunner which is often enough enough to support other units. It's piss poor vs AI compared to P4 and Sherman (which, in HE is the best AI tank). Sticky nade could be removed.

And considering RNG. I mean, complaining about RNG is like complaining about luck in life. Deal with it. I've had games where my Panther didn't miss one moving shot long range and I've had games where a shot down plane fell on 3 of my reinforcing infantry near truck. 2 Obers and one sturm. One should never complain about RNG, ever. Play with the hand that was dealt.
3 Sep 2020, 15:00 PM
#34
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



It's cannon has no AI (0.5) but once upgraded with MG, it's got 2 hull MGs + top gunner which is often enough enough to support other units.


Still far worse than Comet


It's piss poor vs AI compared to P4 and Sherman (which, in HE is the best AI tank). Sticky nade could be removed.


Comet and Pz 4 have the same AoE as far as I am aware. And even without looking at the stats I would say that Comet is anything but "piss poor" in terms of AI when compared to the Panzer 4 ( even without all its AI abilities ) ( In case this was referring to the Comet)


And considering RNG. I mean, complaining about RNG is like complaining about luck in life. Deal with it. I've had games where my Panther didn't miss one moving shot long range and I've had games where a shot down plane fell on 3 of my reinforcing infantry near truck. 2 Obers and one sturm. One should never complain about RNG, ever. Play with the hand that was dealt.


Nowhere did I complain about RNG. I just stated that a Panther wins not that "easily" against a Comet on close and mid range. Its the same with Panzer 4 J vs T 34 85 for instance, here RNG can play a major factor too, because they are not that far apart. A Panther vs T 34 / 76 on the other hand can not be decided by RNG, because in this case the Panther actually wins "easily"
3 Sep 2020, 15:11 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13163 | Subs: 1

The problem with Panther elsewhere.

Panther is cost efficient counter to Super heavies like the IS-2, KV-2, Pershing, Croc.

On the other hand it is not a cost efficient counter to the Comet because it too expensive as counter.

If one build a Panther to counter Comet will not have fuel to build counter vs infatry while the Panther.

In addition risking the Panther to dive for the Comet is too risky since if the Panther is lost the trade is unfavorable.
3 Sep 2020, 15:27 PM
#36
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1



It's cannon has no AI (0.5) but once upgraded with MG, it's got 2 hull MGs + top gunner which is often enough enough to support other units. It's piss poor vs AI compared to P4 and Sherman (which, in HE is the best AI tank). Sticky nade could be removed.

And considering RNG. I mean, complaining about RNG is like complaining about luck in life. Deal with it. I've had games where my Panther didn't miss one moving shot long range and I've had games where a shot down plane fell on 3 of my reinforcing infantry near truck. 2 Obers and one sturm. One should never complain about RNG, ever. Play with the hand that was dealt.



The problem with your refusal to play Axis is that you end up with such ridiculously biased "opinions".

Comet and Panther anti-infantry performance are not "similar" at all. Panther has a serviceable amount of mg damage, it's okay and I wouldn't call it terrible. The Comet cannon actually gets kills and wipes - it literally has good AOE and scatter. It's hardly even comparable. With WP and grenades Comet can dominate team weapons, especially AT guns. You're basically calling a C+ and an A "similar".

I never said the Comet was a match for the Panther. I said its overall package is too good, and its armour is oppressive vs mediums while AT guns, shrecks, and Panthers can't pen reliably. Doesn't Panther have 200 far pen? I thought 220 was mid. It doesn't actually change my point, and especially the examples I used. It has heavy tank armour, medium tank speed, lots of utility, and literally no weaknesses. It probably got overbuffed a little the last time round. Should either undo the cost decrease it got previously or nerf some of its overperforming stats.

3 Sep 2020, 15:50 PM
#37
avatar of madin2

Posts: 197


AI performance pretty much the same?

Have you ever used/fought a Comet before?


Even back when it was not very cost effective, it was still better against infantry than a Panther. Since then it got a cost decrease, mg buff, and a main gun buff vs infantry.


Before the buff the comet was worse then a panther against ai with pintle mg, now the are the same. Go and test it on the cheat mod!!!

The only scenario a comet is better against ai is when the squad is clumped but that's also very inconsistent due to the bad accuracy against infantry
3 Sep 2020, 16:16 PM
#38
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13163 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Sep 2020, 15:50 PMmadin2


Before the buff the comet was worse then a panther against ai with pintle mg, now the are the same. Go and test it on the cheat mod!!!

The only scenario a comet is better against ai is when the squad is clumped but that's also very inconsistent due to the bad accuracy against infantry

MGs are effected by cover, by moving, while there difficult to aim.

AI guns are less effected.

In addition Comet comes with grenades and WP.

To put simply if I was facing infatry or support weapons I would rather have a Comet than a Panther.
3 Sep 2020, 16:26 PM
#39
avatar of madin2

Posts: 197

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Sep 2020, 16:16 PMVipper

MGs are effected by cover, by moving, while there difficult to aim.

AI guns are less effected.

In addition Comet comes with grenades and WP.

To put simply if I was facing infatry or support weapons I would rather have a Comet than a Panther.


The comet is only better when u use phosphor shells which came at vet 1 and cost u munitions and don't kill anything but only lower the hp.

If u drive behind an at gun the panther with pintle mg and the comet, again perform the same.
3 Sep 2020, 16:49 PM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13163 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Sep 2020, 16:26 PMmadin2


The comet is only better when u use phosphor shells which came at vet 1 and cost u munitions and don't kill anything but only lower the hp.

If u drive behind an at gun the panther with pintle mg and the comet, again perform the same.

As far as I can remember Comet's WP can kills (unless it has been patched) even if it does not kill it is irrelevant, it add DPS to units output. WP is a good ability.

Panther does not have a grenade...
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