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State of OKW in the meta

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11 Aug 2020, 15:34 PM
#141
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

Instead of the useless sight bonus volks could get the ability to repair vehicles at vet 4(similar to cons repair). So spios have more time to do other things and volks, who scale like shit combatwise, have some utility in the later stages of the game.
11 Aug 2020, 15:49 PM
#142
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


The complaint was that if you over extend your sturms and get punished for it by a wipe you are unable to repair your tanks, which simply isn't true.

You are completely wrong here. The problem is different. If OKW overextends their sturms the punishment is much higher than for the USF, Sov or UKF. It is enough to lose a model while repairing - you will reinforce for 30mp while othe factions will do it for around 20mp. Losing the squad may happen to all players but it will cost OKW much more. Lategem it creates huge disadvantage as wipes are common to off maps, artillery, etc.

Sturms are a critical ubut that covers a lot of ground this is true but if people don't over do their combat its a non issue.

It IS and issue. Nobody is asking about some huge Vols buffs. Just compare the performance of very similarly priced Infantry Sections. Sappers are extremely potent not to mention free crews, etc.

That said it might be nice if the kuble could sweep. Combined with its map hax it would make it a sweet little scout

I could be just a "strange" solution imo. Lategame kubel will be just a waste of resources as it is too fragile.
11 Aug 2020, 15:51 PM
#143
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1007 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 04:21 AMSerrith
USF for example has a lack of non doctrinal rocket artillery, but combining USF and Soviets in a team game removes that weakness for the team.

Thats why its a teamgame. Does it remove THIS weaknesses from USF? No it doesnt. If you face 2 Ost or Ost+OKW they will be both able to have rocket arty. In soviet+USF soviet would have to cover USF lack of rocket arty, meaning he will be having less armor on the field. Weakness is still here.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 04:21 AMSerrith
You also see some units becoming NON-viable such as call in M5 due to the difference in CP timings.

While some are not viable, some becomes viable. Thats the difference between gamemodes. Different commanders for different gamemodes. It was always like this, and there is nothing wrong with it.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 04:21 AMSerrith
This is why different factions have different strengths depending on the game mode.

Strengths and weaknesses are the same in any gamemode, we dont have different stats for different gamemodes. Synergy between factions and teamplay has nothing to do with balance if its not coasing exploits of game mechanic.

Core problems\weaknesses of the faction always remain the same, with a difference being that it might be harder\easier to deal with them depending on the gamemode solely based on the fact that you have teammate to help.
11 Aug 2020, 15:56 PM
#144
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


Again, sturms are supposed to be limited and overworked. That's the theme of the faction. Not to say slightly cheaper and weaker sturms that upgrade into refined units wouldn't be a miss, but they are not supposed to match the enemy's numbers.

Supposed, supposed, supposed... Just stop, will You? Allied tanks WERE supposed to be vastly inferior to axis armour and then crews made sense, and cheaper engies made sense. Now mediums are largely similar across board (and TDs just rule the armour engagements) and crews remained and this is not reflected ion the cost of the vehicle. You USF, for example, paid more manpower for vehicles because they have crews then Your argumentation would make sense. After all the buffs to allied stock and doctrine armour, and after adding the UKF, what you are writing just makes very little sense. Sturmpios were supposed to be busy repairing much better armour in times when KT would just end the game for OKW if built. The current game reality is different and such hackneyed truths no longer apply.
11 Aug 2020, 18:01 PM
#145
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


(1)Thats why its a teamgame. Does it remove THIS weaknesses from USF? No it doesnt. If you face 2 Ost or Ost+OKW they will be both able to have rocket arty. In soviet+USF soviet would have to cover USF lack of rocket arty, meaning he will be having less armor on the field. Weakness is still here.


(2)While some are not viable, some becomes viable. Thats the difference between gamemodes. Different commanders for different gamemodes. It was always like this, and there is nothing wrong with it.


(3)Strengths and weaknesses are the same in any gamemode, we dont have different stats for different gamemodes. Synergy between factions and teamplay has nothing to do with balance if its not coasing exploits of game mechanic.

(4)Core problems\weaknesses of the faction always remain the same, with a difference being that it might be harder\easier to deal with them depending on the gamemode solely based on the fact that you have teammate to help.


I am going to label your arguments numerically and address them.

1) So rephrase the weakness of USF in this regard. In 1v1s where USF players select a non calliope doctrine, they will not have a rocket artillery barrage if they need it.
SPECIFICALLY arranged teams give you the option of taking soviets as a teammate which does remove this weakness. The weakness being not having the ability to support troops with a rocket barrage.

2) Yes. The fact that some units become viable and some don't is precisely what makes some factions stronger or weaker. A faction that crutches hard on a 1v1 unit that becomes unviable in teamgames is weaker as a result.

3) The stats on each unit do not change, but the strategies and tactics do and some units are weaker when utilizing certain strategies then others.

4) The fact you have a teammate to cover your weaknesses is a huge reason why you see different commander picks then you do in 1v1. In 1v1 it is extremely hard to protect an elefant due to supply restrictions and cost, but in team games this isn't a problem.
11 Aug 2020, 19:44 PM
#146
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 14:46 PMSerrith


I don't see how sturmpios do their jobs better. PROPORTIONALY sturmpios do not repair faster then their equivalents(they do not repair 60% faster both having sweepers). Sturmpios do not lay mines faster, and the OKW heavy wire ends up getting laid SLOWER then standard wire-which is quite obnoxious in the early game.

I just don't see how it can be said that other factions are worse off in this area. One thing that oft gets brought up is that you can't have sweepers everywhere which is why mines are useful even though you just need a sweeper to spot them. Well in this regard 3 squads can cover far more ground then 2.


They don't repair 60% faster but they do repair much faster. And getting the sweepers without impacting their ability to fight while also buffing their repair speed is amazing. While they don't lay wire faster they do lay better wire, and they don't lay mines faster but they do lay the same amazing mines the soviet allies do (in contrast to the specialized mines of the Ostheer. Not to say those are bad but the cheap mines are more flexible, which given the limited nature of sturms I'd call a boon) not to mention their shock value at the start of the match. basicly while more expensive from the word go the generate more value and have more value to generate. They earn their cost at the start with combat and earn their upkeep through engineering doing both very well
11 Aug 2020, 23:02 PM
#147
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



They don't repair 60% faster but they do repair much faster. And getting the sweepers without impacting their ability to fight while also buffing their repair speed is amazing. While they don't lay wire faster they do lay better wire, and they don't lay mines faster but they do lay the same amazing mines the soviet allies do (in contrast to the specialized mines of the Ostheer. Not to say those are bad but the cheap mines are more flexible, which given the limited nature of sturms I'd call a boon) not to mention their shock value at the start of the match. basicly while more expensive from the word go the generate more value and have more value to generate. They earn their cost at the start with combat and earn their upkeep through engineering doing both very well


The wire is a moot point because in the early game where wire is most often placed, it's to do so to deny cover to infantry and build speed is more important then its ability to resist some light vehicles.

I'm ambivalent on the mines, I wouldn't say the UKF/SOV/OKW mines are objectively superior to ostheers mine lineup though USF does struggle here. Either way, often it's more important to have the squads nearby TO lay the mines, and that's where having more cheaper expendable squads is better.

Finally yes I do think that they are worth 300 manpower given their capabilities. But they have too many critical capabilities. Thats the issue. Something is needed to lighten the load because the mechanized HQ engineers don't cut it.
12 Aug 2020, 00:37 AM
#148
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 23:02 PMSerrith


The wire is a moot point because in the early game where wire is most often placed, it's to do so to deny cover to infantry and build speed is more important then its ability to resist some light vehicles.

I'm ambivalent on the mines, I wouldn't say the UKF/SOV/OKW mines are objectively superior to ostheers mine lineup though USF does struggle here. Either way, often it's more important to have the squads nearby TO lay the mines, and that's where having more cheaper expendable squads is better.

Finally yes I do think that they are worth 300 manpower given their capabilities. But they have too many critical capabilities. Thats the issue. Something is needed to lighten the load because the mechanized HQ engineers don't cut it.


I think the wire is cool, but it could probably go to fortifications and have regular wire instead granted if your sturms are laying wire in the early stages they are usually going to waste. I have however had decent success in using it to corral flame cars into a mines. Niche as niche gets but Ill concede.

The mines bit against, I wouldn't say one mine or the other(s) is better one way or another, just that the quick and dirty works well for okw. And given the amount of muni okw burns not having 3 mine layers isn't really an issue imo.

As for the many critical abilities but that is indeed the point of them. And while the repair drones don't replace proper repairs entirely due to inflexibility they can lessen the burden considerably if your sturms are busy can let you out off an immediate replacement of sturms should they go the way of the dodo.
12 Aug 2020, 03:26 AM
#149
avatar of Pervitin Addict

Posts: 51

Nah, volks are the least of their problems

Besides, we know how overperforming they were when they still cost 250MP

The tech structure needs a fix most of all. Then the popcaps of certain units.


+1, give me medics off HQ after converting a truck. That's all I ask
12 Aug 2020, 07:13 AM
#150
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9



+1, give me medics off HQ after converting a truck. That's all I ask

And thus, battlegroup HQ was never seen again.
12 Aug 2020, 08:10 AM
#151
avatar of A table

Posts: 249



+1, give me medics off HQ after converting a truck. That's all I ask


It is not like you can place medkits in your HQ with a engineer starting unit.

Also, goodbye BQHQ.
12 Aug 2020, 08:29 AM
#152
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 07:13 AMKatitof

And thus, battlegroup HQ was never seen again.


So the only reason to go for battlegroup HQ currently is that they have medics ?

12 Aug 2020, 08:40 AM
#153
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9



So the only reason to go for battlegroup HQ currently is that they have medics ?

Certainly one of the big reasons you would want to.

Unless you have some kind of suggestion to make units within it batshit OP for the timing of BG HQ.
12 Aug 2020, 09:22 AM
#154
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

What is the argument for OKW being the only faction unable to build caches these days?

This just grinds my gears. Caches are mostly team game thing anyways so theyll get all the fuel they want. Ostheer players are always designated fuel bitches. Nothing more frustrating as ostheer player than getting matched with 3 OKW players knowing you are going be handicapped to sacrificing 1000+ mp alone to silence the cries of selfish OKW players to sacrifice my map presence just so they can build that KT just to be killed by 60 range TDs.

Ps. Also looking for teammates that build JPs instead of KT.
12 Aug 2020, 09:22 AM
#155
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 08:40 AMKatitof

Certainly one of the big reasons you would want to.



Against UKF LeiG is usually a must have since your Infantry is rather weak.


Also I don't quite get your logic

" Battle HQ is overall bad so it must be the only viable healing option since it would not get chosen otherwise "

Instead it should be : Adjust BG Hq units so it doesn't get chosen only for healing
12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AM
#156
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9




Against UKF LeiG is usually a must have since your Infantry is rather weak.


Also I don't quite get your logic

" Battle HQ is overall bad so it must be the only viable healing option since it would not get chosen otherwise "

Instead it should be : Adjust BG Hq units so it doesn't get chosen only for healing

I've never said its bad.
Never even hinted at it.

But mech is just too easy to play in comparison with puma and luchs, countering all of the early game of allies until they get ATGs.

Flak HT is very good and very strong, but about 97% of OKW players are in utter denial about the unit because it has micro tax justifying its IWIN performance even against AT infantry behind cover(as it'll just blast green cover walls and sandbags and pin whatever is behind it quite damn fast).

ISG as you've said, is the way to counter the pit and its overall good support and HMG counter as well, but again, micro tax due to lack of retreat.

Someone would need to find some kind of strat that completely shuts down LVs for BG HQ to re-emerge.
Its SU-76 of OKW, its not bad, in fact its very good, you can't buff it without OP-ing it, but alternative is just incomparably better.

So, probably as vipper would suggest, to see more of BG HQ we need to nerf mechanized.
12 Aug 2020, 10:09 AM
#157
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof

I've never said its bad.
Never even hinted at it.


You said that BH HQ is only there for the meds and wouldn't get chosen if OKW got healing on T0



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof
But mech is just too easy to play in comparison with puma and luchs, countering all of the early game of allies until they get ATGs


Ah yes. The easy and powerful mech of OKW. Because AEC and T 70 can't be used to deny Luchs.
And if OKW goes Puma instead of Luchs, then all you need to do is to take a little bit of care of your LV or stall for Mediums.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof
Flak HT is very good and very strong
but about 97% of OKW players are in utter denial about the unit because it has micro tax justifying its IWIN performance


Ah yes. Who doesn't know the "I win" Flak HT? Just wait a eternity till it gets its gun set up and prey that the enemy has no AT gun nearby.




jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof
ISG as you've said, is the way to counter the pit and its overall good support and HMG counter as well


I said that you need ISG due to OKW infantry being outmatched by UKF infantry



jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof
So, probably as vipper would suggest, to see more of BG HQ we need to nerf mechanized.


OKW lacks against UKF? Easy to fix. Just nerf mechanized :snfPeter:
12 Aug 2020, 10:53 AM
#158
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13370 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof



So, probably as vipper would suggest, to see more of BG HQ we need to nerf mechanized.

Lets try to stick to what Vipper has actually posted and not guess.

And what Vipper has said is that after USF had a tech revamp OKW are going to need one also.
12 Aug 2020, 14:55 PM
#159
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

when people say that OKW has the best units in the game, to compensate for its glaring flaws, what did people have in mind when that was said?

just about everything they get can be rolled over just like every other faction.
at the moment, only 3 units come to mind, ST-pios,panzerfusiliers and fallschirmjaegers are great.

volks are meh/ok
raketten are ok
mg34 are meh/bad
AA halftrack is good
ISG is good
luchs is ok
puma is ok
walking stuka is good
pz4 is good
jagd4 is good
panther is ok
obers are good

KT is ok
JT is ok

many decent units, apart from veterancy, are there any game breaking units available to OKW that legitimizes their flaws?
things that i have missed just point them out
12 Aug 2020, 15:08 PM
#160
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1007 | Subs: 1

If you want to give heal to HQ, then it shouldn't be medics. At best it should be timed ability, with 40-50 second cooldown, awaible at HQ after mech is set up.

In this case sturmpios heal will be still usable, because you wont be able to constantly heal all your troops, unless mass retreated and medics would have still have options to exist.

Or even HQ getting medics and Battlegroup getting timed AOE heal.

But in 1v1 the only real true reason why ppl go for med is to get heals. There is no reason to go battlegroup in tearms of the units it gives to you. Better to go for mech and have possible arty\AI LV\AT LV to cover OKW problems.

In teamgames its a different story but it wouldnt change much.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof

But mech is just too easy to play in comparison with puma and luchs, countering all of the early game of allies until they get ATGs.


Its not like OKW has upper hand in early game against USF\UKF and its not like OKW would have upper hand against T70 and USF LVs. Mech it countering it, but without it you are playing survival mode.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2020, 09:36 AMKatitof
Flak HT is very good and very strong, but about 97% of OKW players are in utter denial about the unit because it has micro tax justifying its IWIN performance even against AT infantry behind cover(as it'll just blast green cover walls and sandbags and pin whatever is behind it quite damn fast).

Except it can be rendered useless and force your STpios constantly repairing it instead of supporting Volks\Laying mines\Sweeping because both USF\UKF can have counters by the time it arrives and Sov can have AT guns by any time if they went T2. Its just too risky to go for AA HT.
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