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State of OKW in the meta

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10 Aug 2020, 19:04 PM
#121
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 13:25 PMKatitof

Also, if you can't get your vehicle alife to your base, you MOST CERTAINLY will NOT BE ABLE TO repair it on field.

Quick repairs in the field can win you the game. I hope (since You believe You are as an expert) You remember one of the tactics used by top players which was to never kill tiger ace but leave it with a sliver of health. Repairing it and making it "occupy" popcap gave allied players enough time to win.
10 Aug 2020, 19:35 PM
#122
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9


Imagine that repair automations lay mines, can be upgraded with flamer/bazooka/piat, can sweep, cap and snare other vehicles.

That's some mad crazy stuff going on in your head then, because you most certainly could not get that insanity out of context of my posts replaying specifically to your comment about repairing and repairing exclusively.

I advise getting back on pills.
10 Aug 2020, 19:40 PM
#123
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 19:35 PMKatitof

That's some mad crazy stuff going on in your head then, because you most certainly could not get that insanity out of context of my posts replaying specifically to your comment about repairing and repairing exclusively.

I advise getting back on pills.

I advise playing the game for You. You know what? Maybe even You could try OKW before You voice such strong opinions? You think it is possible? Much better than insulting other forum members.
10 Aug 2020, 19:44 PM
#124
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

*grabs popcorn*
10 Aug 2020, 19:52 PM
#125
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

OKW's problem has always been its tech structure. USF, UKF and OKW were all victims of Relic's strange obsession with making incomplete factions that rely on very powerful gimmicks.

Most of those gimmicks have been stripped out now, but OKW still has an awkward tech structure.

Some sort of USF-style tech overhaul is probably the answer for it.
10 Aug 2020, 20:06 PM
#126
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289


This is sth I'd use to describe players who don't see the obvious - it is really manpower heavy to repair/sweep/mine with a 300mp unit that has 30mp reinforcement cost. That is real mental gymnastics not to see that and start talking about the (perceived) superiority of axis armour.

Which does not even need to transfer into additional AT shot. Let alone the fact that hand held at stuff can be equipped on almost anything and just dish damage continuously.

This an example of extreme mental gymnastics.

For the price of 1 KT You can but 2 medium tanks/tanks TD, and still have some resources for infantry. The cost efficiency of KT is so bad that either a player has already won the game and just builds it for fun, or You should be happy seeing it as it will mean they will lose the game soon.

I never wrote it is meaningless. IMO it is much worse to have one tiger than two other tanks (TD+premium medium, for example)

How is that piece of text related to expensive sturms or state of OKW? Allied TDs are basically very potent and shut most axis medium armour completely. It is a bit unfair to say the least.

But I specifically used this example to prove that one allied tank is enough and to deal with it OKW will need a puma and to deal with infantry it will need Luchs. I only wrot it to show that axis may need more tanks than allies - you suggested that allies have usually more tanks. And t-70 is one of the most imbalanced units in game (probably next to UKF Valentine).

This fragment - I don't understand, especially gotcha part. Just play the axis mate for a while at least and try to get to similar level with them.

Another example of mental gymnastics. It still is much worse than having 3 CEs. Mate - just face the reality. It is really harder to repair Ur tanks/vehicles as OKW. OKW is in terrible spot right now imo. Much more difficult to play than all allied factions. Instead of repeating myths You could try to pinpoint where the problems are. But to do that You would have to play them...


you really need to get off the axis up train man. okw can use some love but its not a bad as you claim.

Okw having losts more armour then allies is not a myth.
bouncing more rounds thus avoiding damage is taking a extra shot more often is not a myth.
having strongest engie out of the gate is not a myth.
self healing saving manpower is not a myth.
having a repair station that helps free up sturms for mining and sweeping is not a myth.
its a myth that allied players put hh at on all inf. they put them on engies almost exclusivly.

any more supossed myth you believe i said?

in the late game allies (esp soviet) have more veichles fielded cuz they are cheaper. but i should have been more clear about that one.

As i said before allied td,s are to good atm, and esp ost meds suffer cuz of it. the vet pen buffs need to be looked at for starters they jump up 80 points starting at around 220 far pen. and get some turning buff via vet instead.
The okw p4 or vetted ost p4 can still bounce these vet 0 td,s at long range some times, allied meds cant bounce bounce a stug or jadgpz 4 or a panther (all vet 0) for that matter at at all from max range.

yes its a bit harder to repair okw tanks. but they do tend to shrug of more hits and get in more damage before they are forced off. you cant have it both ways. Having stronger tanks be back as fast as weaker tanks is a bit unfair to say the least.
still no okw armour supiriority.....



11 Aug 2020, 00:03 AM
#127
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1219


From what I remember You kept repeating that UKF (especially sections) needed buffs. I hope U see the results.


Im not want to going personal here, but the latest thing i ever said about sections on this forum is asking for price increase to 280 and moving acc to 0.4. I was also again the moving acc buff right from the beginning.
11 Aug 2020, 00:04 AM
#128
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1502



you really need to get off the axis up train man. okw can use some love but its not a bad as you claim.

Okw having losts more armour then allies is not a myth.
bouncing more rounds thus avoiding damage is taking a extra shot more often is not a myth.
having strongest engie out of the gate is not a myth.
self healing saving manpower is not a myth.
having a repair station that helps free up sturms for mining and sweeping is not a myth.
its a myth that allied players put hh at on all inf. they put them on engies almost exclusivly.

any more supossed myth you believe i said?

in the late game allies (esp soviet) have more veichles fielded cuz they are cheaper. but i should have been more clear about that one.

As i said before allied td,s are to good atm, and esp ost meds suffer cuz of it. the vet pen buffs need to be looked at for starters they jump up 80 points starting at around 220 far pen. and get some turning buff via vet instead.
The okw p4 or vetted ost p4 can still bounce these vet 0 td,s at long range some times, allied meds cant bounce bounce a stug or jadgpz 4 or a panther (all vet 0) for that matter at at all from max range.

yes its a bit harder to repair okw tanks. but they do tend to shrug of more hits and get in more damage before they are forced off. you cant have it both ways. Having stronger tanks be back as fast as weaker tanks is a bit unfair to say the least.
still no okw armour supiriority.....





Thank you. The tech structure for OKW is weird but that doesn't make it UP or OP. It makes it special. All of the factions currently are well balanced. Some commanders are not and most maps are not. But that's it. Maps should def get an overhaul and swap out some maps in automatch, all modes. One map that needs to get deleted is Port of Hamburg. Weird design, geometry and chokepoints with idiotic path design. Basically favors rocket arty and heavies. Redball is also a poorly designed map but that's another topic.

Achpawel, you seriously need to reconsider the stance on Axis UP. Even though in ranked I only play USF, I'm by no means "BUFF ALLIES, NERF AXIS, AXIS OP" kind of person. If you can give me one good reason and brainstorm the pros and cons of a change you would like to implement to OKW then I see nothing wrong with that implementation, and neither would the balance team. But what you are proposing is straight up buffing OKW heavily under the magical geas of "OKW IS totally UP, trust me bro".
11 Aug 2020, 00:26 AM
#129
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Post bro".

I only suggested that because Volks were left behind in the power creep race they could get a possibility to get a sweeper upgrade mutually exclusive with stg upgrade. The sweeper would reduce the firepower of the squad because you wouldn't be able to holster it. It would also make the squad a rather expensive repair squad (260mp + 45muni). I didn't suggest anything else. A small buff to a weaker faction, which is nowhere near all the buffs for many allied units.

What happened later just amazes me, especially looking at all rifles, conscripts, sections buff. Just can't believe how much allied fanboysim I witnessed and twisted logics accusing me of doing exactly what they were doing themselves. Guys - just think for a moment before you roll all the superior axis armour nonsense.
11 Aug 2020, 00:42 AM
#130
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1219

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 17:44 PMKoRneY


I don't recall asking for cheaper anything, just stating that nerfing sturms is a bad idea because okw would just get rolled. If you want that to happen then that's fine with me I guess


You didn't, but before that there are event idea of putting sweeper on volk.

And, my idea is nowhere a neft. You say okw will be stomped by assault section, but the stating stum of you still have stg. OKW built order with Volk opening will be unchange (Stating stum + 2/3 Volk) what will change is stum spam opening, instead of 2, you can have upto 3 if you want to without staving MP on the following minute and it will be less oppress than now.

Say, if we give stum ass gren mp40 at 250mp price point, they are more than capable of defense themselves again assault section when double up or couple with a Volk. Playing again Mg spam will also be easier since you will have more close dps squad for flanking, etc. Playing again UC, you can double up sherk squad cheaper without having to sacrifice your dps from fist stg squad by buying 2 more stum and upgrade sherk for them.

This ultimately will open the way for reducing power lv of allies early game units, section for example: price to 280 and moving acc to 0,4.
11 Aug 2020, 01:01 AM
#131
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Repair trucks are there so if your sturms are busy or dead you are not without.


The problem is that as nice as it is to have auto repairs at base, they ONLY repair(vehicles).
Unfortunately sturmpioneers are tasked with wiring off cover, laying mines, building doctrinal defenses, doing mine sweeping, repairing vehicles AND structures as well as functioning in the combat role. Most factions end up with 3-4 squads to do all of this, while OKW rarely gets more than 2 and often only has 1. If the only thing sturmpios did was repair, this wouldn't be an issue.

This is why I think that some of that utility needs to be offloaded onto other units.
11 Aug 2020, 01:07 AM
#132
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



Achpawel, you seriously need to reconsider the stance on Axis UP. Even though in ranked I only play USF, I'm by no means "BUFF ALLIES, NERF AXIS, AXIS OP" kind of person. If you can give me one good reason and brainstorm the pros and cons of a change you would like to implement to OKW then I see nothing wrong with that implementation, and neither would the balance team. But what you are proposing is straight up buffing OKW heavily under the magical geas of "OKW IS totally UP, trust me bro".


Consider that achpawel's opinions largely based on 1v1s(it says so in his signature), and in that game mode, OKW is considered fairly weak-probably the weakest of the 5 factions. For team games that changes, but in the context of the game mode that he(and I) primarily play in, OKW does struggle.
11 Aug 2020, 01:36 AM
#133
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1007 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 01:07 AMSerrith

For team games that changes, but in the context of the game mode that he(and I) primarily play in, OKW does struggle.


Core faction problems are still the same for any other gamemodes. The only difference being is that you might resive a support from your teammate or the fact that you fighing on a smaller map part.

But again if unit A looses to unit B always, it will lose in 1v1 or 4v4, without teammate support lets say.

For excample LVs in teamgames in general have less impact and opportunity window, but it doesnt mean unit is weaker in teamgames. Its harder to play maybe, but its still the same unit.

If UKF has problems with snipers or OKW has problems with early LVs, then they will still have all thouse problems in teamgames. Its just might be easier\harder to play against.

In my eyes, overall speaking, correct balance is already left the stage of being "balanced for 1v1", because overall designes\builds\choses\holes\weaknesses are the same across all the gamemodes, with a difference being that in teamgames its might be harder to spot or easier to avoid. Major one I mean. Not gamemode exclusive like T34+ISU+IL2 lets say, which is mostly teamgame strategy. But again getting major problems looked at, it might aswell fix minor and gamemode exclusive ones.

11 Aug 2020, 04:21 AM
#134
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 01:01 AMSerrith


The problem is that as nice as it is to have auto repairs at base, they ONLY repair(vehicles).
Unfortunately sturmpioneers are tasked with wiring off cover, laying mines, building doctrinal defenses, doing mine sweeping, repairing vehicles AND structures as well as functioning in the combat role. Most factions end up with 3-4 squads to do all of this, while OKW rarely gets more than 2 and often only has 1. If the only thing sturmpios did was repair, this wouldn't be an issue.

This is why I think that some of that utility needs to be offloaded onto other units.

The complaint was that if you over extend your sturms and get punished for it by a wipe you are unable to repair your tanks, which simply isn't true.

Sturms are a critical ubut that covers a lot of ground this is true but if people don't over do their combat its a non issue.

That said it might be nice if the kuble could sweep. Combined with its map hax it would make it a sweet little scout
11 Aug 2020, 04:21 AM
#135
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



Core faction problems are still the same for any other gamemodes. The only difference being is that you might resive a support from your teammate or the fact that you fighing on a smaller map part.

But again if unit A looses to unit B always, it will lose in 1v1 or 4v4, without teammate support lets say.

For excample LVs in teamgames in general have less impact and opportunity window, but it doesnt mean unit is weaker in teamgames. Its harder to play maybe, but its still the same unit.

If UKF has problems with snipers or OKW has problems with early LVs, then they will still have all thouse problems in teamgames. Its just might be easier\harder to play against.

In my eyes, overall speaking, correct balance is already left the stage of being "balanced for 1v1", because overall designes\builds\choses\holes\weaknesses are the same across all the gamemodes, with a difference being that in teamgames its might be harder to spot or easier to avoid. Major one I mean. Not gamemode exclusive like T34+ISU+IL2 lets say, which is mostly teamgame strategy. But again getting major problems looked at, it might aswell fix minor and gamemode exclusive ones.



Its not just a matter of "does unit A beat unit B", its also a matter of "Can I support this doctrinal unit with a doctrinal ability not normally available to me" or "Does this unit composition work if I have a larger total supply cap to work with".

USF for example has a lack of non doctrinal rocket artillery, but combining USF and Soviets in a team game removes that weakness for the team.

You also see some units becoming NON-viable such as call in M5 due to the difference in CP timings.

This is why different factions have different strengths depending on the game mode.
11 Aug 2020, 07:48 AM
#136
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13370 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 19:52 PMLago
OKW's problem has always been its tech structure. USF, UKF and OKW were all victims of Relic's strange obsession with making incomplete factions that rely on very powerful gimmicks.

Most of those gimmicks have been stripped out now, but OKW still has an awkward tech structure.

Some sort of USF-style tech overhaul is probably the answer for it.

I had pointed exactly that during the USF tech revamp.
11 Aug 2020, 08:12 AM
#137
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


The complaint was that if you over extend your sturms and get punished for it by a wipe you are unable to repair your tanks, which simply isn't true.

Sturms are a critical ubut that covers a lot of ground this is true but if people don't over do their combat its a non issue.


His specific statement was
"repair trucks are a bonus to have, but not a replacement for ST-pios, and getting 2 ST-pio's is 600MP and 16 pop, high cost."

Which is pretty much exactly what I was getting at. They are a benefit sure, but are no replacement for an actual squad due both to lack of mobility and to lack of utility tools on the structure itself. And in fact, the second part is IMO the most important, for lower pop cap other factions can have THREE sweeper squads in the field, and are easier to replace.
11 Aug 2020, 10:51 AM
#138
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1502

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 01:07 AMSerrith


Consider that achpawel's opinions largely based on 1v1s(it says so in his signature), and in that game mode, OKW is considered fairly weak-probably the weakest of the 5 factions. For team games that changes, but in the context of the game mode that he(and I) primarily play in, OKW does struggle.


Ok, I did not know that. However, balancing 1v1 would have a domino effect on larger modes. 1v1 is exceptionally different than 3v3 or 4v4 and "just" largely different than 2v2.

I honestly can't speak for 1v1 as I do not play that mode at all due to the asymmetric balance. It's not surprising that one faction would be weaker than the other in different stages of the game. Does a perfect solution exist to balance 1v1 and 4v4 in one go? Definitely. Is it doable without some supercomputers? Hardly.

OKW in 1v1 struggles in 1v1 and dominates in 3v3s. If you buff something that "fixes" 1v1 you give even more power in teamgames. COH2 never seemed like a good 1v1 game to play. There are plenty of faction uniqueness to really break the bond between 1v1 and 2v2+
11 Aug 2020, 14:29 PM
#139
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 08:12 AMSerrith


His specific statement was
"repair trucks are a bonus to have, but not a replacement for ST-pios, and getting 2 ST-pio's is 600MP and 16 pop, high cost."

Which is pretty much exactly what I was getting at. They are a benefit sure, but are no replacement for an actual squad due both to lack of mobility and to lack of utility tools on the structure itself. And in fact, the second part is IMO the most important, for lower pop cap other factions can have THREE sweeper squads in the field, and are easier to replace.

Other factions can have 3 sweepers for the same price but aside from sweeping they are worse off as those squads do their jobs worse. Again, sturms are supposed to be limited and overworked. That's the theme of the faction. Not to say slightly cheaper and weaker sturms that upgrade into refined units wouldn't be a miss, but they are not supposed to match the enemy's numbers.
11 Aug 2020, 14:46 PM
#140
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Other factions can have 3 sweepers for the same price but aside from sweeping they are worse off as those squads do their jobs worse. Again, sturms are supposed to be limited and overworked. That's the theme of the faction. Not to say slightly cheaper and weaker sturms that upgrade into refined units wouldn't be a miss, but they are not supposed to match the enemy's numbers.


I don't see how sturmpios do their jobs better. PROPORTIONALY sturmpios do not repair faster then their equivalents(they do not repair 60% faster both having sweepers). Sturmpios do not lay mines faster, and the OKW heavy wire ends up getting laid SLOWER then standard wire-which is quite obnoxious in the early game.

I just don't see how it can be said that other factions are worse off in this area. One thing that oft gets brought up is that you can't have sweepers everywhere which is why mines are useful even though you just need a sweeper to spot them. Well in this regard 3 squads can cover far more ground then 2.
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