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State of OKW in the meta

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4 Aug 2020, 20:53 PM
#1
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11

I Feel like with the recent otheer buff and the nerf of the grand offensive doctrine has exposed OKW major flaw in the game.. which is their mainline Volksgrenadier and their overreliance to elite infantry in the late game
in the last meta, Grand offensive is overperforming because of the early heavy tank rush and their hyperscaling pzfusilier
now after that thing getting nerfed, everyone goes back to their usual doctrine choice
that usually not included a panzerfusilier
now with volksgrenadier back to the menu everyone feels OKW underwhelming especially in early and late game when volks feel very expensive for their combat capability in early game (ik about sturmpioneer and STG shock value) and their late game is too reliant of the elites especially obersoldaten.. that thing take so long to get vetted and usually the game will end after ober reach their potential
pls go easy on me this is my first forum post
4 Aug 2020, 20:54 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15712 | Subs: 7

1v1, 2v2 or above?
Because perception of faction drastically changes based on game mode and balancing exclusively for 1v1 is a thing of the past for a couple of years now.
4 Aug 2020, 20:57 PM
#3
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11

all mode
but the flaws feel more significant in 1v1
4 Aug 2020, 21:14 PM
#4
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 821 | Subs: 1

Nah, volks are the least of their problems

Besides, we know how overperforming they were when they still cost 250MP

The tech structure needs a fix most of all. Then the popcaps of certain units.
4 Aug 2020, 21:22 PM
#5
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 252 | Subs: 1

OKW vs UKF is still Alt+F4 due to the weaknesses of volks as you mentioned, among other problems like being MG’d off the field.

I hated to admit it but Tiger stall really kept OKW still in the game during that crucial period when Obers are still vetting up. Still hate the GO Doctrine though. The gap between Allied elite inf/LMG mainline entering the field and vet II Obers is quite considerable yes though if they can get extended firefights, then all that damage adds up fast. Unfortunately, common comps including triple vet III Penals will just outshoot your face off, even at a MP equivalent/loss. Don’t get me started on Triple double Bren IS.

SP StG44 is a downgraded compared to the Panzergrenadiers’ one and has weak mid to far dps. They are good for bullying engineer and isolated squads but far too costly to spam.
4 Aug 2020, 21:43 PM
#7
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11

OKW vs UKF is still Alt+F4 due to the weaknesses of volks as you mentioned, among other problems like being MG’d off the field.

I hated to admit it but Tiger stall really kept OKW still in the game during that crucial period when Obers are still vetting up. Still hate the GO Doctrine though. The gap between Allied elite inf/LMG mainline entering the field and vet II Obers is quite considerable yes though if they can get extended firefights, then all that damage adds up fast. Unfortunately, common comps including triple vet III Penals will just outshoot your face off, even at a MP equivalent/loss. Don’t get me started on Triple double Bren IS.

SP StG44 is a downgraded compared to the Panzergrenadiers’ one and has weak mid to far dps. They are good for bullying engineer and isolated squads but far too costly to spam.


it's pretty cheap if you go battlegroup and actually that's the only power spike that volks have in the game...
and that's about like.. 5 min or less of advantage assuming the allies doesn't use elite and get weapon rack as soon as they can equip each squad with one
4 Aug 2020, 22:40 PM
#8
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 252 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Aug 2020, 21:43 PMRIZAs


it's pretty cheap if you go battlegroup and actually that's the only power spike that volks have in the game...
and that's about like.. 5 min or less of advantage assuming the allies doesn't use elite and get weapon rack as soon as they can equip each squad with one


I guarantee you serious problems holding the field vs decent opponents if you go BGruup and don't get a Flak HT lol. I've kicked the thing in the past but I can't deny its area denial/kicking off point potential. Volks + MG won't do anything to deal with Shocks and USF have plenty of smokes. Smoking an MG basically kills its power for a bit while it repositions. Smoking a Flak HT does nothing if the player still have sight on you coming in (Attack Ground).

UKF can still just outmuscle you.
4 Aug 2020, 22:47 PM
#9
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7362 | Subs: 1

OKW has some issues with tech timings/costs/powerspikes and the UKF vs OKW match up has never been properly addressed.

4 Aug 2020, 23:18 PM
#10
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 300

OKW vs USF is definitely not Instant Exit. Dense maps greatly favor Sturms in the opening and in 1v1 you can deny a lot of area to USF. USF will win engagements in medium and close range <same cover>, however, long range engagements behind same cover are won by volks.

1v1 is the most distinct game mode and as such should never be the basis for balance. I'm pretty sure it's downright impossible to achieve any sort of balance considering all modes.
Eg. while OKW is on the weaker side in most scenarios vs USF, it's really strong in teamgames with walking stukas and good commanders (like specOps flares).

If you considered 1v1 only, then some units become useless. You'd never see Pershing cause you need Sherman to push back. Rangers would also be rare due to the 10 pop cost along with 350 manpower cost. Pak howits might be a micro-hell and constant bleed. 1v1 games tend to last shorter and therefore you don't see late game units unless somebody rushes them by skipping stuff.
5 Aug 2020, 01:20 AM
#11
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 124

Yeah I don't Alt F4 just because I come across one particular faction.

The closest I come to that is OKW v Soviets, and I just groan because here come the Penals/M3 and for the next three or five minutes; I don't have a reliable counter.
5 Aug 2020, 01:26 AM
#12
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 166


1v1 is the most distinct game mode and as such should never be the basis for balance. I'm pretty sure it's downright impossible to achieve any sort of balance considering all modes.


I disagree tbh. Aside from 4v4 all gamemodes, have a share of 1v1ining in them, with the difference being that it happens in a smaller location, not across the whole map.

In 1v1 some problems are move visible, some less.

In regards to OKW, it suffers from the same problems in teamgames it sufferes in 1v1.

Main problems of OKW as I see them:

1) Volks vs IS match up. Against rifles\cons, depending on the situation you have ways to win 1v1 firefight, against IS you dont. Against UKF you only can buy time as OKW, because they will outshoot you all the time, as long as they are in any cover. Forcing you to bleed, or spend on muni on nades. Pottentually Kubelwagen can stop the bleed, but brencarrier will hardcounter it aswell as green cover IS.

2) Abusable vunerablity to light vehicles and teamweapons untill tech. Any early light vehicles can roll over OKW as long as it dont jump into close distance or OKW didnt go for fusiliers. Locked snare is effectively leaves you with your pants down. For first 4-5 mins.
Raketen is not an option early on because:
a) Soviet M3 comes with penals which will outshoot your volks
b) Rifles will outnumber your if you get to counter jeep
c) IS always winning early on

So spending this early MP into raketen will snowball into much bigger problems.

3) Trade off tech system which leaves you without essential game options. You go mech you dont have healing and forced to bleed muni, you go battlegroup you have no LVs and only raketen to counter allies LVs.


Problem with OKW is that ones you face an opponent who knows its weaknesses and knows how to abuse them, its a puse massohism playing as them.
5 Aug 2020, 01:37 AM
#13
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 124



I disagree tbh. Aside from 4v4 all gamemodes, have a share of 1v1ining in them, with the difference being that it happens in a smaller location, not across the whole map.

In 1v1 some problems are move visible, some less.

In regards to OKW, it suffers from the same problems in teamgames it sufferes in 1v1.

Main problems of OKW as I see them:

1) Volks vs IS match up. Against rifles\cons, depending on the situation you have ways to win 1v1 firefight, against IS you dont. Against UKF you only can buy time as OKW, because they will outshoot you all the time, as long as they are in any cover. Forcing you to bleed, or spend on muni on nades. Pottentually Kubelwagen can stop the bleed, but brencarrier will hardcounter it aswell as green cover IS.

2) Abusable vunerablity to light vehicles and teamweapons untill tech. Any early light vehicles can roll over OKW as long as it dont jump into close distance or OKW didnt go for fusiliers. Locked snare is effectively leaves you with your pants down. For first 4-5 mins.
Raketen is not an option early on because:
a) Soviet M3 comes with penals which will outshoot your volks
b) Rifles will outnumber your if you get to counter jeep
c) IS always winning early on

So spending this early MP into raketen will snowball into much bigger problems.

3) Trade off tech system which leaves you without essential game options. You go mech you dont have healing and forced to bleed muni, you go battlegroup you have no LVs and only raketen to counter allies LVs.


Problem with OKW is that ones you face an opponent who knows its weaknesses and knows how to abuse them, its a puse massohism playing as them.


A common build I'm doing now with OKW is double Strums, double kubel before first truck.
I know I can't chase an M3 with a Rak; I know my Strums can't rush in and take on penals.

I usually group 1 kubel/strum, have my kubels cap flags, and have the Strums recon forward. If I do come across a single penal/conscript squad, I have my kubels engage as far away as possible and send in my Strums to get as high as DPS as possible without risking my kubels.

I'll build battlegroup, put my first volks, medic, ISG, MG34 depending on what I see.

The nice thing about the kubel/sturm combo is that sturms can repair the squishy kubels while capping.

It's risky, and I lose a lot of early map control but I can get my opponent frustrated with the tactic because by the time they rush in, my kubel is already backing up.

I wish Kubels had a feature similar to the Jagdpanzer where it could move slowly without losing vision, so it could support combat units a bit better.
5 Aug 2020, 02:06 AM
#14
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11



A common build I'm doing now with OKW is double Strums, double kubel before first truck.
I know I can't chase an M3 with a Rak; I know my Strums can't rush in and take on penals.

I usually group 1 kubel/strum, have my kubels cap flags, and have the Strums recon forward. If I do come across a single penal/conscript squad, I have my kubels engage as far away as possible and send in my Strums to get as high as DPS as possible without risking my kubels.

I'll build battlegroup, put my first volks, medic, ISG, MG34 depending on what I see.

The nice thing about the kubel/sturm combo is that sturms can repair the squishy kubels while capping.

It's risky, and I lose a lot of early map control but I can get my opponent frustrated with the tactic because by the time they rush in, my kubel is already backing up.

I wish Kubels had a feature similar to the Jagdpanzer where it could move slowly without losing vision, so it could support combat units a bit better.


uhhh that thing won't work when someone can actually micro their unit and priority target your sturm tbh
volks are still the backbone and one of the main problems why OKW vs USF|UKF always losing in the early and late
and on the soviet side
early game both of them have similar playstyle except cons need to get more closer and have way more quantity
the midgame advantage usually will not last long since the existence of T-70(really common expecially in 1v1) which forced you to either get puma or raketen to deter that killing machine
on late game VS soviet its pretty fair actually
one have super soldier and the other have quantity (vetting up ober is easier vs soviet) and your tank is superior
and on UKF matchup.. here's the problem...
UKF will own OKW matchup assuming they have similar skill
On early game IS when occupying building is enough to 1v1 a close range sturm and on regular scenario regular IS in yellow cover usually is enough to outfight defending volks in green cover.. after you successfully engage with IS and win.. and all model is just injured BOOM heal and your squad is on full combat capability again... and jesus that vicker K UC will seriously bleed any infantry in front of them..
and in midgame if you go battlegroup (assuming that you already negated the Vicker K)
5 man IS will own your Volks when they need to be in medium range to engage effectively
and assault officer will take care of the sturmpioneer usually
or mechanized..
your upgrade will be severely delayed and if you go lutch... the AEC will come after like 1 min and the hunt will begin.. then usually ppl like to go puma.. and by that time you are on advantage but not for long since british medium timing is pretty quick
late game..
you relying on your ober and then go for any medium you like.. your tank is equal VS them but your infantry will be severely outgunned by them until you have vet 2 ober.. and ober vetting take like very long
imagine 260 manpower for something that will get outgunned or outnumbered in nearly every occasion
5 Aug 2020, 02:11 AM
#15
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 124

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2020, 02:06 AMRIZAs


uhhh that thing won't work when someone can actually micro their unit and priority target your sturm tbh
volks are still the backbone and one of the main problems why OKW vs USF|UKF always losing in the early and late
and on the soviet side
early game both of them have similar playstyle except cons need to get more closer and have way more quantity
the midgame advantage usually will not last long since the existence of T-70(really common expecially in 1v1) which forced you to either get puma or raketen to deter that killing machine
on late game VS soviet its pretty fair actually
one have super soldier and the other have quantity (vetting up ober is easier vs soviet) and your tank is superior
and on UKF matchup.. here's the problem...
UKF will own OKW matchup assuming they have similar skill
On early game IS when occupying building is enough to 1v1 a close range sturm and on regular scenario regular IS in yellow cover usually is enough to outfight defending volks in green cover.. after you successfully engage with IS and win.. and all model is just injured BOOM heal and your squad is on full combat capability again... and jesus that vicker K UC will seriously bleed any infantry in front of them..
and in midgame if you go battlegroup (assuming that you already negated the Vicker K)
5 man IS will own your Volks when they need to be in medium range to engage effectively
and assault officer will take care of the sturmpioneer usually
or mechanized..
your upgrade will be severely delayed and if you go lutch... the AEC will come after like 1 min and the hunt will begin.. then usually ppl like to go puma.. and by that time you are on advantage but not for long since british medium timing is pretty quick
late game..
you relying on your ober and then go for any medium you like.. your tank is equal VS them but your infantry will be severely outgunned by them until you have vet 2 ober.. and ober vetting take like very long
imagine 260 manpower for something that will get outgunned or outnumbered in nearly every occasion


I didn't say it worked great, it's just something I'm trying. xD
5 Aug 2020, 02:20 AM
#16
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11

uhh yeah
here's the magic list on manpower comparison in allies unit from 260 manpower volks point of view
IS = 270 manpower for something that will absolutely dominate your infantry but without snare
Rifleman = 280 manpower for something that will always outgun your unit on every stage of the game
Conscript = 240 manpower for something similar but 6 dudes but without vanilla firepower upgrade need cover to be effective and slightly less long-range DPS and butch of utility and mine. yes because why not
5 Aug 2020, 06:15 AM
#17
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2077

OKW lacks a a lot of basic in early game. like
- anti MG options:
u have no sniper, u have no MG/indirect fire/ flamer/ or squad carriers to flank a MG (at start/ nondoc)

- your AI lv Luchs is not good vs other units arriving this time like AEC, t70/ stuart...so you need to invest in more micro and resources to get a puma

- OKW lack nice offmaps which are cheap and not easy to dodge like cluster bombs and some airstrikes to kill team weapons

- and the biggest issue actually is: there are brits. this faction has no downside like all other factions, has great options in all departments and can easily lockdown any area for some times which gives a huge advantage ..because: time > all
5 Aug 2020, 06:56 AM
#18
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 166

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2020, 02:20 AMRIZAs
uhh yeah
here's the magic list on manpower comparison in allies unit from 260 manpower volks point of view
IS = 270 manpower for something that will absolutely dominate your infantry but without snare
Rifleman = 280 manpower for something that will always outgun your unit on every stage of the game
Conscript = 240 manpower for something similar but 6 dudes but without vanilla firepower upgrade need cover to be effective and slightly less long-range DPS and butch of utility and mine. yes because why not


Well fan fact is, Rifles wont outgun you always, actually you can outgun them at long range and in green cover. They will outgun you at medium and close range.

IS being 10 MP more, is pretty much like compering vetted obersts vs conscripts, when it comes to their firefights.

But again, its more of UKF balance problem, not OKW problem. Ostheer is not beeing faceroled by UKF exclusively because they have early snare\mg\sniper. Pretty much all the sings UKF dont have hard answer to early on.

USF match up can be oppresive yes, but not totaly one sided.

But on the offtopic, I still dont undertand why balance team desided to boost tommies in such way, considering they are not USF and they have access to 2 (+1 with commander) additional units early on, besides tommies.
5 Aug 2020, 07:32 AM
#19
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11



Well fan fact is, Rifles wont outgun you always, actually you can outgun them at long range and in green cover. They will outgun you at medium and close range.

IS being 10 MP more, is pretty much like compering vetted obersts vs conscripts, when it comes to their firefights.

But again, its more of UKF balance problem, not OKW problem. Ostheer is not beeing faceroled by UKF exclusively because they have early snare\mg\sniper. Pretty much all the sings UKF dont have hard answer to early on.

USF match up can be oppresive yes, but not totaly one sided.

But on the offtopic, I still dont undertand why balance team desided to boost tommies in such way, considering they are not USF and they have access to 2 (+1 with commander) additional units early on, besides tommies.


UKF are fine right now except for the UC with Vicker K..
it just.. volks feel so shitty early on vs anything for it cost
and for USF
long range engagement is rarely happened expecially in early game
and the only window where volks outgun them is only small.. which the the time where volks get their early STG upgrade..
and on late game.. pretty sure usf will outgun them with double bar
5 Aug 2020, 07:42 AM
#20
avatar of RIZAs

Posts: 11

OKW lacks a a lot of basic in early game. like
- anti MG options:
u have no sniper, u have no MG/indirect fire/ flamer/ or squad carriers to flank a MG (at start/ nondoc)

- your AI lv Luchs is not good vs other units arriving this time like AEC, t70/ stuart...so you need to invest in more micro and resources to get a puma

- OKW lack nice offmaps which are cheap and not easy to dodge like cluster bombs and some airstrikes to kill team weapons

- and the biggest issue actually is: there are brits. this faction has no downside like all other factions, has great options in all departments and can easily lockdown any area for some times which gives a huge advantage ..because: time > all


OKW actually have a good early anti mg option
which is.. early tech nade
and flamer exist in firestorm doctrine
brits have downside which is
1.small squad and at pretty high cost
2.IS is really bad without cover and assaulting
3.nearly all commander is niche
4.the lack of anti garrison tool beside pyrotech which is very expensive
and their downside is very noticeable
5.their elite is dedicated CQC before getting an upgrade
the problem i think is on OKW mainline
instead of UKF
before the buff and rework UKF feel really bad at 1v1
now they are decent at it
and they fight pretty equally for it cost vs grens at all timeframe and mode
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