Login

russian armor

Is the WC 51 overperforming ?

PAGES (8)down
12 Aug 2020, 08:08 AM
#121
avatar of A table

Posts: 249



You are wasting your time with codguy mate. Usf could have a nuke that is automatically unlocked after 30 min of game time, destroying the enemy base and he'd make a thread saying it comes too late because usf is the weakest faction in every single way


This is certainly not meant for COmeDic relief guy alone. The WC51 currently offers too much for its price. That does not mean we need to butcher it into late- game irrelevance. So a gentle approach is required to make sure the WC51 is toned down but still a good earlygame unit.

Basic stuff would be to remove crew and its ability to cap points w/o a infantry unit inside, maybe even a minor fuel costs(5 or 10).
12 Aug 2020, 11:52 AM
#122
avatar of Goldenpunch

Posts: 124



Hey listen ... I am gonna tell you a little secret. Riflemen can also be upgraded with LMGs. Crazy right ?



Thanks for ad hominem. But no i will not buying. Rifle lmg upgrade is doctrinel only. OST players can always upgrade their grens with mg42.
13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AM
#123
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 884

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 05:29 AMA table


The WC51 currently has:

- self repair with crew
- a decent HMG that is better than the kubel, can definetly 1v1 most german starting infantry w/o snares
- Can capture points(w/o infantry inside it)
- Mark target
- Arty barrage that can wreck pretty much anything
- for 200 mp available from the start, cheaper than the kubel(slightly)

And this is somehow no issue? Atleast the crew needs to go.


It's not really cheaper than the Kubel at all. It's 200 + 45 munitions for the ability to defend itself, I don't know anyone who doesn't get the upgrade. The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.
13 Aug 2020, 11:26 AM
#124
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AMCODGUY

The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.



Mark the Target is also a big reason
13 Aug 2020, 11:26 AM
#125
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 03:42 AMCODGUY


It's not really cheaper than the Kubel at all. It's 200 + 45 munitions for the ability to defend itself, I don't know anyone who doesn't get the upgrade. The arty barrage isn't even available until Major and without it there would be no reason to build one late game.


200 MP is a small price to pay for the package and advantages compared to the kubel(210 mp if i am not mistaken), even if it takes more skill and time to get it to vet 3. The upgrade is there to delay the .50 HMG that can easily drop models of infantry as it is a single entity with great DPS.

Arty barrage is easily more powerfull than the one from major, and it has a decent range too(though you still need to cover it obv). I'd say the risk/reward gives a bit too much reward.

Without arty barrage you still have mark target, that provides decent debuffs against axis armor and is available from the start.

At the very least the crew needs to go. The kubel does less and costs 2.5 seconds of manpower less(40) and cannot self repair w/0 doctrines or vet 3. This is aside from the ridiculousness that a visible crew of 2 creates a 4- man squad when you press T.
13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17831 | Subs: 8




Mark the Target is also a big reason

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?
13 Aug 2020, 12:53 PM
#127
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?



Just because you never saw it being used it doesn't mean that it doesn't get used. It can be a powerful tool especially when combined with the 76 mm Sherman or the Jackson.


Also I did not state that this ability is a problem. I just stated that besides the arty barrage there are also other reasons for building one late game
13 Aug 2020, 14:04 PM
#128
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?


I've seen it used. On its own its not a problem, just like the soviet mark vehicle isn't imbalanced. Its the fact that its part of a 200mp package that already offers a ridiculous amount of utility at low cost.
13 Aug 2020, 14:42 PM
#129
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

Between the lines I think everyone agrees that this unit is really cheap and more than equally powerful.

Can we move on to change suggestions?
13 Aug 2020, 15:31 PM
#130
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost
13 Aug 2020, 16:25 PM
#131
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost


This would imo also be the best Option. It is not OP in earlygame because it has mark the target or artillery , but because it has stuff like a very powerful gun, the ability to cap points / carry troops and still comes at a very low cost
13 Aug 2020, 16:32 PM
#132
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1

I would test the following:

Cost the same or even a slight decrease

Now has shared veterancy

Can now fire flares

Crew removed/mark target removed/155 barrage removed

Range to 35

Gun upgrade removed passenger automatically crew HMG

Passengers do not die on destruction only suppressed maybe take some damage

Can now be "Withdraw and Refit" for a M3
13 Aug 2020, 17:02 PM
#133
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

Vipper.
regarding the 50cal upgrade on the wc51, do you mean you cannot carry squads anymore? do that and wc51 seems alot less tempting to use.
wc51 has a limited usage early game unless you go 2-3+, it needs to be good for those 5+ minutes until axis goes 222/rak/PZgrens+zooks/pak40.

like the flare ability
MMX
13 Aug 2020, 17:15 PM
#134
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

I think i'm in the minority on seeing it get nerfs on direct performance rather than late game utility ones.

Basically a combination of:

Slight cost increase
Reducing the gun range to be equal to other light cars
Giving Step it up a munition cost


i'd also rather see the early game performance adjusted than any of the late game abilities removed. kind of perplexing that so many people think what had been almost universally recognized as good unit design for light vehicles, i.e. lowered initial power spike but increased utility especially in later stages of the game, should not apply to the wc51 for some reason.
i'd just lower the long range dps and/or range and see from there. if that still proves insufficient a slight cost increase either for the unit itself or the upgrade might be enough to reduce its early game impact without nerfing the truck back into oblivion.
13 Aug 2020, 17:24 PM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13472 | Subs: 1

Vipper.
regarding the 50cal upgrade on the wc51, do you mean you cannot carry squads anymore? do that and wc51 seems alot less tempting to use.
wc51 has a limited usage early game unless you go 2-3+, it needs to be good for those 5+ minutes until axis goes 222/rak/PZgrens+zooks/pak40.

like the flare ability

No.

I mean that the HMG is automatically maned when it is carrying a passenger and passenger can still fire as normal.
13 Aug 2020, 17:28 PM
#136
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

nice idea vipper
13 Aug 2020, 17:47 PM
#137
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1511

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 16:32 PMVipper
I would test the following:

Cost the same or even a slight decrease

Now has shared veterancy

Can now fire flares

Crew remove/mark target remove/155 barrage remove

Range to 35

Gun upgrade removed passenger automatically crew HMG

Passengers do not die destruction only suppressed maybe take some damage

Can now be "Withdraw and Refit" for a M3


These are great prepositions. Crew removed would be best from the 3.
15 Aug 2020, 14:43 PM
#138
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2020, 07:31 AMSumi


Exactly! This added to the fact that Axis infantry have the most snares and available from the start while allied infantry lack snares to counter early vehicles. If wc51 was sturdy same could be applied for M20 yet it dies with smoke and over the top speed and barely survives after the 10 min mark. People here have an agenda and they don't wanna see any early game advantage for allies coz they wanna have them all.



This is factually wrong in every way. The amount of ignorance in your post is truly horrifying. Before you say something so monumentally stupid, you might want to actually try playing both sides. I have 1500 games as Allies and 1600 as Axis, and actually understand the situations all factions face, unlike players who have only ever played USF.

Axis literally have no early game ultra lights apart from the doctrinal 221 which can't transport units, costs fuel, can't repair itself, can't cap, and comes out two minutes later. It also has such ridiculously bad armour that 2 squads can just run towards it and force the 221 to escape. And of course, Kubels (which hardly even fight) are not even a threat to combat engineers in cover.

So many brainless players idiotically parrot the "oh Grens start with faust" line as if it's some amazing advantage. The fact that Ost need early game snares to even play the game is because every Allied faction has game-ending ultra lights that come out 1:30 to 2:00. Soviet, USF, and Brit ultra lights which come out at 1:30 to 2:00 can either inflict insane bleed (10+ kills) or outright chasedown wipe infantry at will.

Allies don't need early game snares since Axis has no actual early game ultra lights. Literally the earliest stock Axis light vehicle is the 222 which comes out at 4:30 to 5:00. The doctrinal Ost clown car comes in at about 4:00 to 4:30. Axis light vehicle pressure in the first 5 minutes is virtually non-existent; it's not as if gated snares were causing USF or Soviets to die to 3 minute clown car chasedowns.

If Grens didn't start with faust it would be Soviet T1 into M3 into auto-win in the first 5 minutes of every Sov-Ost matchup. OKW got the raketen in T0 to balance the fact that they have no faust.


If OKW or Ost had a WC51 equivalent, every Allied faction could start with T0 snares for free and it wouldn't matter. The Axis-WC51 would just bleed Allied infantry to death from 45 range while avoiding snares, just like they do right now. And we'd be back to the same discussion, except that maybe finally Allies-only players would concede that the WC51 is way too good for its cost.
15 Aug 2020, 14:59 PM
#139
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Aug 2020, 11:54 AMKatitof

I have never seen it being used, just like the arty.
Hows's it a problem?


I mean, you have also "never seen it win games" even though VonIvan literally popularised the doctrine by winning an entire series in a tournament using WC51 abuse, and it's one of the most popular picks in 1 v 1, especially vs OKW, and is only overshadowed by Recon Support.

The WC51 is wildly overperforming, but the rest of the doctrine is only so-so. I would prefer improving the rest of the doctrine and making the WC51 more reasonable. It can still be the best ultra light because it's doctrinal, but it shouldn't be this godlike.

As always, only the usual CODGUY-level extremists think that an M3 clown car with the best mobility in game and can garrison Cav Riflemen or regular Rifles for chasedown wipes, that doesn't cost fuel, doesn't require screwing yourself over by going t1, arrives earlier and has no tech or CP requirements, can cap, can self-repair, has free nitro boost, and a high dps MG which outranges infantry - apparently that's not wildly overperforming.

When you compare the Kubel, the m3, the UC, and the 221, you see a nice balance of unique strengths and weaknesses.

Kubel is cheap, mobile, and can cap, BUT Low dps, can't really fire on the move, and can't garrison squads or do much else.
M3 has good mobility, good damage and can garrison units for chasedown wipes, BUT costs fuel, requires the building of the extremely unattractive Sov T1, can't cap or self-repair.
UC has good damage and decent armour as well as useful upgrades, BUT can't garrison squads, upgrade locked behind tech, poor maneuverability, higher cost, can't cap.
221 has good mobility, good damage, and a good upgrade, BUT can't garrison squads, costs fuel, can't cap, and is tech-gated in terms of timing.
15 Aug 2020, 17:31 PM
#140
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

snip


Which is why the adjustments should be done to it's early performance.

The point was that mark target (which doesn't even modify dmg) and artillery are not the reason the unit is been used nor that it generally survives or get's rebuild in the late game to use this abilities.
PAGES (8)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

380 users are online: 380 guests
4 posts in the last 24h
24 posts in the last week
266 posts in the last month
Registered members: 42127
Welcome our newest member, DmitriyVasilec
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM