...
I think the problem is less the total cost rather than the timing at which you have to expend those.
Rifle grenade=dodge BUT allied grenade=MP bleed
4 Aug 2020, 14:58 PM
#21
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I think the problem is less the total cost rather than the timing at which you have to expend those.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
4 Aug 2020, 15:04 PM
#22
Posts: 3106 | Subs: 2
I think the problem is less the total cost rather than the timing at which you have to expend those.
I know, but people keep repeating these "free officers" and "free grenades" phrases that are complete nonsense and try to use it as arguments how good they have to perform with their favourite faction (not saying that brick top did it here, but in general) to beat the OP enemy factions.
4 Aug 2020, 15:31 PM
#23
Posts: 124
Rifle grenades can be easily dodged. But it moves units out of cover. So usually one model drop from grens mg42.
4 Aug 2020, 15:43 PM
#24
Posts: 1351
Rifle grenades can be easily dodged. But it moves units out of cover. So usually one model drop from grens mg42.
plus (maybe even more importantly) stops them from firing as grens don't fire on the move with their mg42, plus get really bad penalty when moving for their kars.
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4 Aug 2020, 17:52 PM
#25
Posts: 1289
plus (maybe even more importantly) stops them from firing as grens don't fire on the move with their mg42, plus get really bad penalty when moving for their kars.
That really bad moving penalty is the same for most inf. Esp with standard rifles. Grens have 16 damage high rof single shot rifles to boot.
Again you over exagerate stuff to try and paint poor poor ost as very up. This needs to stop.
4 Aug 2020, 17:58 PM
#26
Posts: 1794
rifle nades is bad because it takes too long to animate and up against mobile 5-6 man squads, weapon teams with faster move times.
it is the worst infantry nade.
it is the worst infantry nade.
4 Aug 2020, 18:12 PM
#27
Posts: 1289
rifle nades is bad because it takes too long to animate and up against mobile 5-6 man squads, weapon teams with faster move times.
it is the worst infantry nade.
It can handely wipe team weapons on yellow cover in one shot from full health and 6 men. In yellow cover they tend to bunch up. If the opponent usent paying attention it will be very deadly to setup teams. Just against inf not so much. Ost has pgrens and bbq track to deal with regular inf easy.
4 Aug 2020, 18:19 PM
#28
Posts: 1794
It can handely wipe team weapons on yellow cover in one shot from full health and 6 men. In yellow cover they tend to bunch up. If the opponent usent paying attention it will be very deadly to setup teams. Just against inf not so much. Ost has pgrens and bbq track to deal with regular inf easy.
it is still the worse nade
4 Aug 2020, 20:41 PM
#29
Posts: 1289
it is still the worse nade
Its a long range as in a lot longer range hit or mis nade.
And bundle nades on pgrens are really good. No need for grens to have same capabilities with nades.
4 Aug 2020, 22:42 PM
#30
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
it is still the worse nade
Assault nades (individually), molotov, flame nade, RET rifle nades, PF nade (MAYBE), stun nade and blenderkorp.
Some of those have more utility, but i'll rate them lower than Rnade.
As other have stated, it's hit or miss. Compared to other grenades, it's better use when multiple engagements are occurring compared to other grenades. If you try to dodge once you heard "grenade", you will eat the dmg no matter how fast you look for the squad which is getting shit on. The shorter range of other nades, makes it more telegraph when it's gonna be used.
Add how bad audio cues are in the game + the never fixed no animation Rifle grenades and you have this "inconsistent" nades.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
5 Aug 2020, 06:35 AM
#31
Posts: 1351
it is notthe same. Most close/mid range inf have better accuracy on the move.
That really bad moving penalty is the same for most inf. Esp with standard rifles. Grens have 16 damage high rof single shot rifles to boot.
Again you over exagerate stuff to try and paint poor poor ost as very up. This needs to stop.
Ost is in a much better spot than it used to be. I'm not exaggerating just explaining the faction differences and their consequences.
Look at this about rifle nade:
It can handely wipe team weapons on yellow cover in one shot from full health and 6 men. In yellow cover they tend to bunch up. If the opponent usent paying attention it will be very deadly to setup teams. Just against inf not so much. Ost has pgrens and bbq track to deal with regular inf easy.
That is a book definition of exaggerating I'm afraid mate.
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5 Aug 2020, 08:46 AM
#32
Posts: 1289
it is notthe same. Most close/mid range inf have better accuracy on the move.
Ost is in a much better spot than it used to be. I'm not exaggerating just explaining the faction differences and their consequences.
Look at this about rifle nade:
That is a book definition of exaggerating I'm afraid mate.
So me saying the riflenade can but not always 1 shot or nearly one shot wipe is excagerating?
Wich in no way untrue. I learned the hard way to avoid yellow cover with mg's and mortars's at the hand of riflenades.
You claiming the really bad moving acc on grens is worse then all other inf is not? wich is wrong btw and is standard among most infantry including grens. Its 0.5
You need to get a correct dictionary my friend.
5 Aug 2020, 09:21 AM
#33
Posts: 1351
So me saying the riflenade can but not always 1 shot or nearly one shot wipe is excagerating?
You suggested such grenade can wipe six men support weapons crew - it cannot unless in some completely unrealistic scenario. That was an exaggeration.
Wich in no way untrue. I learned the hard way to avoid yellow cover with mg's and mortars's at the hand of riflenades.
Just like with all grenades. They can be deadly. Rifle nade is usually good against rather "fresh" players. It is generally very easy to dodge. It's lethality is lower than standard nades. Gameplaywise, it is usually easier to drain some health close range and just finish the unit with a standard grenade than deal enough damage far range to finish a squad with a rifle made. The latter option just gives players more time to react.
You claiming the really bad moving acc on grens is worse then all other inf is not? wich is wrong btw and is standard among most infantry including grens. Its 0.5
Accuracy is just one of many stats that add up here. Grens have worse dps on the move compared to other mainline inf. Especially after they are upgraded with mg42.
You need to get a correct dictionary my friend.
First you exaggerated accusing me of doing that. Now you are simply manipulating trying to picture rifle nades as the most potent. UKF or USF nades are imo better, definitely not worse than rifle nades.
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5 Aug 2020, 10:57 AM
#34
Posts: 1289
You suggested such grenade can wipe six men support weapons crew - it cannot unless in some completely unrealistic scenario. That was an exaggeration.
Just like with all grenades. They can be deadly. Rifle nade is usually good against rather "fresh" players. It is generally very easy to dodge. It's lethality is lower than standard nades. Gameplaywise, it is usually easier to drain some health close range and just finish the unit with a standard grenade than deal enough damage far range to finish a squad with a rifle made. The latter option just gives players more time to react.
Accuracy is just one of many stats that add up here. Grens have worse dps on the move compared to other mainline inf. Especially after they are upgraded with mg42.
First you exaggerated accusing me of doing that. Now you are simply manipulating trying to picture rifle nades as the most potent. UKF or USF nades are imo better, definitely not worse than rifle nades.
I'll end it with this.
That the rifle nade can one shot but not very often does not make it an unrealistic scenario. Its just uncommon. All that is needed is bunched up inf/teamweapon (6 men or 4 models) and the player to be distracted elsewhere. Nothing acagerating about that. Its balanced this way because it can be fired from further away. And that pgrens also have a excelent nade.
You claim that grens have bad moving acc. They do not. Now when proven wrong you resort to: but moving acc it just one stat of many involved.
Just admit it when you getting something wrong or miss reference etc. We are all human.
The biggist factor is that grens have few rifles and the lmg cant be fired on the move. That is why on the move they dont do as well.
Guards have it even worse. When upgraded 4 out the 6 weapons cant be fired on the move. But gaurds are fine like this.
I have data for reference and to reach my arguments. I manipulate nothing here. You just jump to a conclusions.
6 Aug 2020, 02:23 AM
#35
Posts: 783
Guards have it even worse. When upgraded 4 out the 6 weapons cant be fired on the move. But gaurds are fine like this.
I have data for reference and to reach my arguments.
Upgraded guards have almost as much dps on the move as a full conscript squad. That's 2 rifles vs 6. When not upgraded, guards have some of the highest on the move DPS of any bolt action squad in the game.
6 Aug 2020, 05:27 AM
#36
Posts: 1289
Upgraded guards have almost as much dps on the move as a full conscript squad. That's 2 rifles vs 6. When not upgraded, guards have some of the highest on the move DPS of any bolt action squad in the game.
When i look at damage accuracy aim time reload etc of both. I dont see how 2 rifles off guards can amount to being almost as good as 6 conscript rifles on the move.
Did you maybe run it through the dps caculator?
6 Aug 2020, 08:28 AM
#37
Posts: 783
When i look at damage accuracy aim time reload etc of both. I dont see how 2 rifles off guards can amount to being almost as good as 6 conscript rifles on the move.
Did you maybe run it through the dps caculator?
The on the move attributes for guard mosins are as follows:
x0.75 Accuracy
x0.5 Cooldown duration
So the guards take a 25% hit to accuracy on the move, but the cooldown time between shots is halved, resulting in an extremely high mobile dps ratio(per weapon).
By contrast, the conscript penalties are:
x0.5 Accuracy
x1.5 Cooldown duration
So only 50% accuracy, and a 50% increase to cooldown times.
The mobile dps of a conscript squad at 20m is 5.226 while the mobile dps of 2 Guard rifles at 20m is 4.596.
Because of the specific attributes effected, this creates an interesting situation where the long range mobile DPS is actually effected quite a bit less than the close range dps(although the close range DPS still has a good ratio) because at long range, cooldown times tend to be much greater and reducing them by a percentage has a VERY positive effect on overall DPS(at those ranges). At max range, Guards rifles have nearly full dps on the move. This is something we also see on panzergrenadiers.
6 Aug 2020, 09:19 AM
#38
Posts: 1351
Now when proven wrong you resort to: but moving acc it just one stat of many involved.
Just admit it when you getting something wrong or miss reference etc. We are all human.
That is actually true. I wrote accuracy but meant dps. And you spotted it right.
Still the important point is that grenades used by allies are usually more cost-effective. They simply deal more manpower drain per munitions cost. It is due to generally larger allied squads and the fact that each model in game is 80 hp and it does not matter if it is elite or not. The killed models are more expensive for the axis on average. Of course grenades have to be used with skill (such as drain some health first and then use it) which just blurs the balance picture. A skilled player playing axis will use grenades in a better way and some allied players might seek balance issues. The reality is that it is more likely that same skilled players will find it easier to use allied nades rooster.
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6 Aug 2020, 11:01 AM
#39
Posts: 1289
The on the move attributes for guard mosins are as follows:
x0.75 Accuracy
x0.5 Cooldown duration
So the guards take a 25% hit to accuracy on the move, but the cooldown time between shots is halved, resulting in an extremely high mobile dps ratio(per weapon).
By contrast, the conscript penalties are:
x0.5 Accuracy
x1.5 Cooldown duration
So only 50% accuracy, and a 50% increase to cooldown times.
The mobile dps of a conscript squad at 20m is 5.226 while the mobile dps of 2 Guard rifles at 20m is 4.596.
Because of the specific attributes effected, this creates an interesting situation where the long range mobile DPS is actually effected quite a bit less than the close range dps(although the close range DPS still has a good ratio) because at long range, cooldown times tend to be much greater and reducing them by a percentage has a VERY positive effect on overall DPS(at those ranges). At max range, Guards rifles have nearly full dps on the move. This is something we also see on panzergrenadiers.
I didnt take the cooldown modifier into account. Thanks for the explenation.
6 Aug 2020, 11:05 AM
#40
Posts: 1289
That is actually true. I wrote accuracy but meant dps. And you spotted it right.
Still the important point is that grenades used by allies are usually more cost-effective. They simply deal more manpower drain per munitions cost. It is due to generally larger allied squads and the fact that each model in game is 80 hp and it does not matter if it is elite or not. The killed models are more expensive for the axis on average. Of course grenades have to be used with skill (such as drain some health first and then use it) which just blurs the balance picture. A skilled player playing axis will use grenades in a better way and some allied players might seek balance issues. The reality is that it is more likely that same skilled players will find it easier to use allied nades rooster.
Yeah no problem we all make mistakes or get things wrong. Like my moving dps off guards being really pis poor.
I agree allied nades are more cost effective but they use nades far less then axis. This cuz they are either tech or doctrinaly locked. Also sections and rifles are very expensive to upgrade. This in turn leads to less midel losses overall and probably evens out the bleed across factions.
(Edited)
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