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No compensation for deleting the Ost T4 cap buff?

4 Aug 2020, 18:02 PM
#41
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:55 PMVipper

And:
Soviet where not meant to have semi-elite stock mainline infantry
USF where not meant to support from good support weapons
UKF where not meant to have snare

Problem is that there is power creep and although grenadier have received buff the "combined arms" thing does not seem to work any more since other faction can either counter it with equally effective combined arm or with sear brute force. Something that Ostheer do with PGs.

And that is why imo one should start nerfing the other factions instead of buffing Ostheer.


agree. Ost is only faction much untouched while other factions got power creep.
Ost late games suck because pound for pound, it is not as cost effective
Smaller infantry size wipes easier or less holding power.
Panther is worst late game tank, poor scaling vs its cheaper counters.

Ost is only viable if you choose VSL or Assgren.
4 Aug 2020, 19:27 PM
#42
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808



agree. Ost is only faction much untouched while other factions got power creep.
Ost late games suck because pound for pound, it is not as cost effective
Smaller infantry size wipes easier or less holding power.
Panther is worst late game tank, poor scaling vs its cheaper counters.

Ost is only viable if you choose VSL or Assgren.


although i generally agree with this, but calling the panther the worst tank is nonsense. imo, i think grens should stay 4 man but with more damage output + faster cap rate with t4 up. + dont brit IS have faster cap rate too?
7 Aug 2020, 19:35 PM
#43
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 884

well, OST needs armour early to compensate for average-ish INF. I supposes if OST was given the option to go 5man gren at T2? it could give OST more options in doctrine-choice


They have really early Panzergrens. I don't see what the problem is. You could try to do a 5th man bolster for Grens and Pioneers when teching to T4 but then you'd have to increase it's cost for teching.
8 Aug 2020, 08:14 AM
#44
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Aug 2020, 19:35 PMCODGUY


They have really early Panzergrens. I don't see what the problem is. You could try to do a 5th man bolster for Grens and Pioneers when teching to T4 but then you'd have to increase it's cost for teching.


Ostheer does not need 5 men grens/pio's nondoctrinally. This is never going to happen.
10 Aug 2020, 09:15 AM
#45
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



Ostheer does not need 5 men grens/pio's nondoctrinally. This is never going to happen.


hmm...why exactly? Brits have nearly the same unit compilation like OST.mostly in a same/ better version.
But brits can upgrade tehir IS into obers performance. and pgrens are only good in closecombat which is very risk in the lategame and u will bleed really since they are really expansive (unlike a IS..they are too cheap to reinforce for their perfomanche)
10 Aug 2020, 09:24 AM
#46
avatar of A table

Posts: 249



hmm...why exactly? Brits have nearly the same unit compilation like OST.mostly in a same/ better version.
But brits can upgrade tehir IS into obers performance. and pgrens are only good in closecombat which is very risk in the lategame and u will bleed really since they are really expansive (unlike a IS..they are too cheap to reinforce for their perfomanche)


Giving grenadiers/Pioneers 5 men would shit on Soviets hard. And the british IS being ''op'' is a brit issue, not a ostheer issue. If you want to make grens more viable(as if they are not...), starting looking at IS.

Bottom line is that anyone that continues to argue for nondoctrinal 5men grens clearly is not capable of using them as 4 men.
10 Aug 2020, 10:14 AM
#47
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

Please stop suggesting adjustments to squad sizes. It is impossible to balance out, if at all we should remove this from the other factions (atleast the non-doc stuff, doctrinal is another story).

As axis main I don't think ostheer needs compensation for the removal of the cap speed from T4. It was a really small buff which caused more bugs than the buff was worth.
10 Aug 2020, 11:42 AM
#48
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

i dont see a big issue to follow the brits upgrade logic: invest some ressources into global upgrades > get a better sqaud for the lategame.

lets see:

whould it be OP to get 5models grens when u invest 400mp and 50 fuel from t4? no it wouldnt. (logic from brits)
10 Aug 2020, 11:57 AM
#49
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

i dont see a big issue to follow the brits upgrade logic: invest some ressources into global upgrades > get a better sqaud for the lategame.

lets see:

whould it be OP to get 5models grens when u invest 400mp and 50 fuel from t4? no it wouldnt. (logic from brits)

And I don't see a big issue to follow the OKW heavy vehicle logic: invest resources into tech you wouldn't normally get and get a heavy tank possibility for it, lets give soviets stock IS-2.

Would it be OP to get limited heavy tank as allied faction after investing in tech you normally wouldn't? No, it wouldn't. (logic from you)


10 Aug 2020, 12:49 PM
#50
avatar of A table

Posts: 249


whould it be OP to get 5models grens when u invest 400mp and 50 fuel from t4? no it wouldnt. (logic from brits)


I don't see the logic behind this. You say that brits are powerfull because of bolster, but instead of delaying/adjusting/removing bolster you would rather see Ostheer getting a copypasta for their grenadiers.

If unit 1(IS) is more powerfull than unit 2(grens), you adjust unit 1 instead of buffing unit 2 as that will mess with unit 3(rifles) and 4(cons).

Personally i would lock bolster until T2 is up. Or the upgrade is unlocked for free at a certain tier(1 or 2), but costs munitions to purchase on individual squads and take a weapon slot(so no more 5 men with 2 brens).
10 Aug 2020, 14:54 PM
#51
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

and pgrens are only good in closecombat


Lol
10 Aug 2020, 15:18 PM
#52
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2



hmm...why exactly? Brits have nearly the same unit compilation like OST.mostly in a same/ better version.
But brits can upgrade tehir IS into obers performance. and pgrens are only good in closecombat which is very risk in the lategame and u will bleed really since they are really expansive (unlike a IS..they are too cheap to reinforce for their perfomanche)


I also vividly remember UKF's mobile mortar meta, the oppressive rocket arty in the late game as well as the famous "buzz bear" tank that levels infantry with the snip of a finger.

Also you have been using PGrens wrong. No wonder they bleed like crazy if you ram them into Allied infantry.
10 Aug 2020, 19:15 PM
#53
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 09:24 AMA table


Giving grenadiers/Pioneers 5 men would shit on Soviets hard. And the british IS being ''op'' is a brit issue, not a ostheer issue. If you want to make grens more viable(as if they are not...), starting looking at IS.

Bottom line is that anyone that continues to argue for nondoctrinal 5men grens clearly is not capable of using them as 4 men.


Mate just chill. UKF has all of these things and it is fine :) Why shouldn't ost have them? Oh, and I hope You will show me how to use 4 men grens. Pleas feel free to demonstrate. You could upload a replay.
10 Aug 2020, 19:16 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2020, 11:57 AMKatitof


Wow - the decription of UKF/Soviets :)
10 Aug 2020, 20:22 PM
#55
avatar of A table

Posts: 249



Mate just chill. UKF has all of these things and it is fine :) Why shouldn't ost have them? Oh, and I hope You will show me how to use 4 men grens. Pleas feel free to demonstrate. You could upload a replay.


People reason to bitch about werhmacht infantry performance is because midrange is not their domain with the possible exception of spamming G43's. If you aren't any good to set up thing into account for that(for example recon, barbed wire, anything that hinders/compromises advancing allied infantry), you will always fight at a disadvantage against nummerically superior squads that have to get close to grens to win the day without excessive losses or a retreat.

That they are individually great tools at long range is seldom considered though(apparently). Best get 5men mid range grens to compensate for their weakness. AKA disregarding balance.

You already have great team weapons that can cover this, most notably the MG42.

So no, Ostheer does not need 5men grens nondoctrinally(in my humble opinion, And i dare say the balance team feels the same). If you say that the british have the better end of the stick due to bolster, look at the British instead of Ostheer. I mean, having bolster take up a weapon slot as an upgrade(much like bolster for Cons at T3/4) would be a fair tradeoff imo.
11 Aug 2020, 00:31 AM
#56
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Mate just chill. UKF has all of these things and it is fine :) Why shouldn't ost have them? Oh, and I hope You will show me how to use 4 men grens. Pleas feel free to demonstrate. You could upload a replay.

Well off the top of my head if say because ost isn't brits, they are a different faction. Then after that I'd add that ost wasn't designed with that in mind, brits were and even then it's being a nightmare to make balanced. Thirdly it doesn't suit grens design even if the other 2 were feasible
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