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USF Calliope balancing

2 Aug 2020, 16:55 PM
#61
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:46 PMVipper

I highlight what part is we agree in.

No, you took one sentence out of context. The very reason I think calli is bad designed is BECAUSE it's doctrinal. It used to be even stronger and cost 140 fu, which was extra dumb. If it's stock it can be weaker

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:46 PMVipper

If one wants to make Calliope stock one might end up redesign the USF because things like Scott and Major arty might have to go. Simply adding the Calliope to existing USF roster is not something I would agree

I literally just said to re-design the scott and move it to doctrine. Can you please stop quoting me if you're going to ignore half of my post?

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:46 PMVipper

"it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer" this is what I responded and I simply pointed out that comparing a unit with high tech cost and one with no cost can be misleading even if it doctrinal.

Yeah that's the problem. Again you strip my words out of context completely. I'm NOT JUST comparing the cost. I'm comparing the cost AND saying that having to pay the tech cost is better than having to choose the commander. You are more than welcome to disagree, but I'm not misleading anyone. I'm making my point very clearly

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 16:46 PMVipper

As I have already pointed out imo the problem has more to do with Urban commander than calliope itself.

I didn't ask you to repeat your opinion. I understood it the first time....
2 Aug 2020, 16:59 PM
#62
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Also not to mention that Urban assault, gives yous you access to elite inf + gives upgrades to litteraly all your army and tactival support turns your rifles into terminators with LMG, gives your mobile reinforcement car (+ best AA unit in the game).
Its not like you would pick the commander and only get main use of it by cali.


Do you see me saying anything about urban assault not being good enough? What are you talking about?

The reason for it to be stock is blobbing. Every faction blobs, and rocket arty is by far the best anti-blob. If we can't fix blobbing the solution is stock rocket arty

I already said I agree the pak howy is good. Maybe too good. It's not a blob counter, so it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about
2 Aug 2020, 17:19 PM
#63
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


The reason for it to be stock is blobbing. Every faction blobs, and rocket arty is by far the best anti-blob. If we can't fix blobbing the solution is stock rocket arty


My point was that, that upped USF\UKF blobs are by far the strongest compare to grens\volks blobs. You can counter them by blob of yourself, while Sov\Ost\OKW cant counter western allies blobs by their blobs, thats why they have stock rocket arty.

At least its my opinion.
2 Aug 2020, 17:23 PM
#64
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


My point was that, that upped USF\UKF blobs are by far the strongest compare to grens\volks blobs. You can counter them by blob of yourself


No you HAVE to counter them by blobbing yourself. That's not good design at all


while Sov\Ost\OKW cant counter western allies blobs by their blobs, thats why they have stock rocket arty.

At least its my opinion.


What the hell happened to Penals and Obers? Did they get deleted from the game?

Ost makes up for it by having the best HMG in the game by far. It's easily the best at countering....blobs
2 Aug 2020, 17:35 PM
#65
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


No you HAVE to counter them by blobbing yourself. That's not good design at all

If you give rocket arty as stock, it wont change anything. USF\UKF will still blob. People blob because its working, because power of the units allow to do so and its effective.


What the hell happened to Penals and Obers? Did they get deleted from the game?

Blobing Obers? This OKW probably in forbes top 10.
And penals dont scale that good into mid\late game, they also dont have smoke\nades and snares if they dont have PTRS and if they do, their AI is non-problematic is not that good.


Ost makes up for it by having the best HMG in the game by far. It's easily the best at countering....blobs

HMGs are somewhat soft-counter to blobs, because while you can force them to retreat, you wont bleed their MP, they will just comeback, also considering USF\UKF have forward retreat points, its debatable.
2 Aug 2020, 17:38 PM
#66
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220



My point was that, that upped USF\UKF blobs are by far the strongest compare to grens\volks blobs. You can counter them by blob of yourself, while Sov\Ost\OKW cant counter western allies blobs by their blobs, thats why they have stock rocket arty.

At least its my opinion.
bullshit
What about pak wall? Usf/UKF are hopeless without rocket arty if someone spam at guns
2 Aug 2020, 17:41 PM
#67
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

bullshit
What about pak wall? Usf/UKF are hopeless without rocket arty if someone spam at guns

USF - pack howi\scott, brute force of upped inf, smoke, major arty, HE sherman.
UKF - smoke on all tanks (except FF\Centaur), smoke on tommies, tommy arty, brute force of upgraded tommies, sniper.
Excluding all doc options
2 Aug 2020, 17:41 PM
#68
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2



Just, both Calliope and SZF are very survivable and obnoxious to deal with. One has health, other has range, both don't have clear cost effective counters.

SZF is generally DEEP behind lines, as it has no reason not to be, unless striking behind the lines.

I do agree, but at least you can punish it being out of position easily, as well as finding a gap in the front line. Especially if there are multiple rocket arty units in team games, diving a tank can sometimes take out 2-3 of those. But Calliope? No chance, you can be happy if you get one. Diving it is not cost effective at any point if your opponent has at least some form of combat ready AT units left.


You guys did read the "im fine with 360" part, right?

I've thought the Calliope is bad design for ages. Should be weaker but stock, late-game artillery should not require doctrine for some and be always there for others. Scott is a cool and unique unit, and I would happily trade it in a heartbeat for a weaker calli. Buff scott and move it to doctrine

@Hannibal. 10-15? That 15 only applies to w. Stuka (which can arrive way earlier), it's 30 more fuel than Katy and werfer

Then it was a misunderstanding, the way you phrased made it look to me like you could agree to 320, but would prefer 400.
Yes, my mistake on the costs. That's a typo and should have been 20-25, not sure why I went with it the second time though...
2 Aug 2020, 18:05 PM
#69
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

whats the pop costs of various rocket arty?
2 Aug 2020, 18:09 PM
#70
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

whats the pop costs of various rocket arty?

PW\Katy\Stuka -12
Cali\Prist - 15.
Sexton - 14
2 Aug 2020, 18:18 PM
#71
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 465

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2020, 19:47 PMKatitof

Its a TANK, not cardboard box on tracks, like pwerfer.


well that escalated fast :rofl:
2 Aug 2020, 18:26 PM
#72
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


PW\Katy\Stuka -12
Cali\Prist - 15.
Sexton - 14

so the same population for the calliope as proper self propelled arty. thats not insignificant either. thanks by the way for providing the numbers
2 Aug 2020, 18:28 PM
#73
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


If you give rocket arty as stock, it wont change anything. USF\UKF will still blob. People blob because its working, because power of the units allow to do so and its effective.


Yeah and it stops working if you hit them with rocket arty.... What is your point? I already agree ukf and usf blobs are stronger, that's irrelevant to this thread and my point. I'm specifically talking about how badly those factions are designed...


Blobing Obers? This OKW probably in forbes top 10.


Not really, it's really common in team games


And penals dont scale that good into mid\late game, they also dont have smoke\nades and snares if they dont have PTRS and if they do, their AI is non-problematic is not that good.


They don't "scale" well only because their starting performance is ferocious. They are plenty strong in a blob. I'm aware of what they do and do not have, you don't need to explain the basic equipment of every unit...


HMGs are somewhat soft-counter to blobs, because while you can force them to retreat, you wont bleed their MP, they will just comeback, also considering USF\UKF have forward retreat points, its debatable.


Again you're missing the point. We all know what hmgs do. One of them does it MUCH better than all the others, it's called the mg42
2 Aug 2020, 18:32 PM
#74
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Then it was a misunderstanding, the way you phrased made it look to me like you could agree to 320, but would prefer 400.
Yes, my mistake on the costs. That's a typo and should have been 20-25, not sure why I went with it the second time though...


Also a mistake, I meant to say 320. For some reason i thought 360 was 2 shots for a minute there. I'm fine with the calli being a 2-shot kill at it's current performance. But I'm also suggesting it be nerfed in other ways so bear that in mind

Sorry for confusion
2 Aug 2020, 18:43 PM
#75
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


Yeah and it stops working if you hit them with rocket arty.... What is your point? I already agree ukf and usf blobs are stronger, that's irrelevant to this thread and my point. I'm specifically talking about how badly those factions are designed...

Ones again. My point is, aside from arty or AI tanks, you cant stop this horde by inf. And USF\UKF horde can stop equal axis horde, thats why axis rely on rocket arty.
Same way Soviets rely on rocket arty if they dont pick doctrine which upps their cons.


Not really, it's really common in team games

Even if so its still punishable by any tank with AI, since obersts dont have any AT nor snare. If we are talking about blob on blob scenario. If you talk about scenario where all armies are established and you have equal ober blob to USF\UKF blob, then its a very long game and USF\UKF lost their advantage window.


They don't "scale" well only because their starting performance is ferocious. They are plenty strong in a blob. I'm aware of what they do and do not have, you don't need to explain the basic equipment of every unit...

They are stong, but not unstoppable by other mainline inf.


Again you're missing the point. We all know what hmgs do. One of them does it MUCH better than all the others, it's called the mg42

Arguably. 50 cal. is just as good at suppresing and pinning, vet 1 vekers in garrison can focus blobs from a safe distance. But again even if MG42 is better, its because its a trade off for mediocre grens.
2 Aug 2020, 18:56 PM
#76
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Ones again. My point is, aside from arty or AI tanks, you cant stop this horde by inf. And USF\UKF horde can stop equal axis horde, thats why axis rely on rocket arty.

That's just not true though. They have obers and pgrens, that's as good against infantry as anything USF/UKF have stock


Same way Soviets rely on rocket arty if they dont pick doctrine which upps their cons.

They don't need a doctrine to up their cons. 7th man is stock and it's the best upgrade they have including doctrines. What are you talking about?


Even if so its still punishable by any tank with AI, since obersts dont have any AT nor snare.

Same goes for infantry sections

Dude I've already told you I agree USF/UKF blobbing is a problem. I don't think you realize how these forums work. If you wanna talk about countering those blobs as axis, make a thread about it

I'm not asking for infantry buffs. I'm not trying to make their blobs worse. If you think axis can't counter their blobs right now, make a thread. I'm done talking about all 5 factions mainlines in a thread about the Calliope....
2 Aug 2020, 19:59 PM
#77
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1




We are talking about it, because one of your ideas was to add caliope as a stock unit. When you've been pointed that considering overall balance of the faction USF dont need caliope as a stock unit, you started arguing that USF need caliope to punish blobs and why not, otherwise they rely on their blob.

Even weaker caliope as stock will buff USF already very powerfull AI to be even more, leading that ppl will get caliope clear path for their blob and blobing will become even worst.

At least both USF\UKF are limited to commanders, if they want to get some sort of the nuking units.
2 Aug 2020, 20:12 PM
#78
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


We are talking about it, because one of your ideas was to add caliope as a stock unit.

No, we're talking about it because you still don't understand what I'm saying


Even weaker caliope as stock will buff USF already very powerfull AI to be even more, leading that ppl will get caliope clear path for their blob and blobing will become even worst.

For the last time, I think usf/ukf blobbing ALREADY needs to be looked at, even if you don't make the calliope stock......

It's a separate fucking issue. If you want to talk about it this much, make a thread. Jesus Christ
2 Aug 2020, 20:33 PM
#79
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


For the last time, I think usf/ukf blobbing ALREADY needs to be looked at, even if you don't make the calliope stock......
It's a separate fucking issue. If you want to talk about it this much, make a thread. Jesus Christ

It WONT be looked at, because balance team already said they wont be touching mainline inf and even if they do, they wont\cant change situation around blobing.

Dont bring ideas out of the box and start aurguing on something, which is completly dependant on a different factors of how faction works.

On this I'il stop discussing this.

2 Aug 2020, 21:04 PM
#80
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


It WONT be looked at, because balance team already said they wont be touching mainline inf and even if they do, they wont\cant change situation around blobing.

You just asked for gren buffs in a different thread...


Dont bring ideas out of the box and start aurguing on something, which is completly dependant on a different factors of how faction works

This sentence doesn't even make sense. I'm well aware of how the factions work. Next time just say you disagree and move on
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