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M3A1 scout car scaling

29 Jul 2020, 02:20 AM
#21
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



Now now you are better than that hyperbole. I think the idea is that should you manage to keep our around or should proved you SOMETHING. Look at other early arriving shock units: ass grens now get a 6th man to help them deal with increased enemy DPS later on. Ass engies get mines and what not to keep them providing. Ostroppen get an lmg to centralize DPS. The 221 gets the 223 upgrade that turns it into a cache AND map hax. The kuble gets shared vet and map hax. The wc51 gets arty, mark target AMD can reuse the crew in another vehicle if it survives. The 222 gets great scouting vet. The 251 gets mines.... The m3a1 gets shock? In a game based around unit preservation a unit shouldn't have a "shelf life". Sure it can lose its ability to operate on the front but it should still bring something to the table if it survives. I think that's all people want (if we discount the katy/ml-20 barrage, fear propaganda, b4 direct fire off map crowd. Which we should....


So 50% of those units all come in doctrines as opposed to the m3a1 which is literally in t1 just to bully OKW. I remember argueing with Mr. Smith 3-4 years back against this oppressive unit to remove it and Mr. Smith's reasoning for the garbage design of bullying OKW was "the unit needs to do something". We don't need another jesus vehicle that does everything like the WC51 which continues to break 1v1. Not because of it does everything lategame, but because it's oppressive early game. If the m3a1 receives buffs OKW should get fausts from the go like OST. Kubels, UCs, m3a1 from minute 1 are all garbage design. Encouraging buffs to non bleed units is just removing cover combat of the first 5 or so minutes of the game to pushing units from cover because of pathing.
29 Jul 2020, 03:22 AM
#22
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



So 50% of those units all come in doctrines as opposed to the m3a1 which is literally in t1 just to bully OKW. I remember argueing with Mr. Smith 3-4 years back against this oppressive unit to remove it and Mr. Smith's reasoning for the garbage design of bullying OKW was "the unit needs to do something". We don't need another jesus vehicle that does everything like the WC51 which continues to break 1v1. Not because of it does everything lategame, but because it's oppressive early game. If the m3a1 receives buffs OKW should get fausts from the go like OST. Kubels, UCs, m3a1 from minute 1 are all garbage design. Encouraging buffs to non bleed units is just removing cover combat of the first 5 or so minutes of the game to pushing units from cover because of pathing.

It sounds like your complaint is against OKW not having an answer (aside from a mine or their t0 at gun) not the car scaling. You seem to be mixing them up and arguing one on account of the other. When tmyoy decide what you are arguing hit me up and we will resume discussing it. What ever that it happens to be
29 Jul 2020, 03:42 AM
#23
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


It sounds like your complaint is against OKW not having an answer (aside from a mine or their t0 at gun) not the car scaling. You seem to be mixing them up and arguing one on account of the other. When tmyoy decide what you are arguing hit me up and we will resume discussing it. What ever that it happens to be


Well I agree that the M3 is quite powerful against OKW, a solution for that specific situation may be just putting faust behind a truck called in instead of a truck deployed.
29 Jul 2020, 05:51 AM
#24
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4


It sounds like your complaint is against OKW not having an answer (aside from a mine or their t0 at gun) not the car scaling. You seem to be mixing them up and arguing one on account of the other. When tmyoy decide what you are arguing hit me up and we will resume discussing it. What ever that it happens to be


<444>_<444>
29 Jul 2020, 06:29 AM
#25
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

The M3A1 is very powerful early game, but so is the T70. Looking at the T70, we can see it gets a powerful support ability that you can use after its optimal timing if you can keep it alive.

However, giving the M3A1 a powerful support ability would give your opponent almost no time to breathe and recover, and Sov isn’t really suffering in viability right now.

I think there should be some reward for keeping it alive, and Sov does lack on the field healing. However, I feel like giving it healing right after its optimal timing would be too oppressive, as the time after that is where your opponent can recover from its power and take advantage of your damaged squads and lack of AT.

I would give it a med crate ability once T3 is purchased. This would be a reward for keeping it alive, but hopefully prevent it from allowing Sov to apply relentless pressure on to its opponents.
29 Jul 2020, 07:43 AM
#26
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Why are people so adamant on giving vehicles that you get at minute 1 5 different abilities.

Since there is a notion within balance team that recon vehicles should have a place in late game too.

Is the scout car not oppressive enough vs no faust OKW?


Apparently it is not since OKW can cover for that weakness with new revamped 0CP PFs who start with AT nade unlocked.


I think the 223 should be able to call in schwer gustav shells at vet 5.

So it shouldn't literally pay for itself by providing you fuel AND muni?
29 Jul 2020, 09:21 AM
#27
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

I would give it a med crate ability once T3 is purchased. This would be a reward for keeping it alive, but hopefully prevent it from allowing Sov to apply relentless pressure on to its opponents.


Would it be medkits like OKW, that heal all surrounding infantry in a radius? Or just a box for 1 squad w/o AOE heal?

If soviets have the ability to heal more than half their army for 15 munitions, there would be little incentive to buy base medics(rather get 1 more cons that can be cheaply healed). 15 muni is not that huge of a muni sink every few minutes.

I'd personally prefer to see a smoke barrage for 30 muni similiar to the ability from Heavy cavalry commander from USF(with a delay of 6 sec or so), but that is possibly a fantasy in this stage of development. Atleast i wouldn't have to buy a mortar if i want to smoke a VP or team weapon.
29 Jul 2020, 10:00 AM
#28
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

It needs shared veterancy as a start, but having med-kits to drop off wouldn't be broken, even if it's early game to help stem T1's relatively large bleed/manpower investments.

If it needs anything else, I maybe a range boost to 40 so it can sit back out of small-arms fire and peg away, perhaps that comes with veterancy.


Didn't read this thread but the M3A1 should definitely NOT get med crates because that effectively saves Soviets 250 MP(equal a unit) in early game and would very likely completely brake the balance against OKW because all of a sudden you don't only have have the M3A1 but aren't outnumbered anymore either.

It either means another Penal/Con on the field or faster Zis and both would not be a good idea.
29 Jul 2020, 10:16 AM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

If one want to increase the utility of this unit one has to lower its shock value...
29 Jul 2020, 11:02 AM
#30
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Didn't read this thread but the M3A1 should definitely NOT get med crates because that effectively saves Soviets 250 MP(equal a unit) in early game and would very likely completely brake the balance against OKW because all of a sudden you don't only have have the M3A1 but aren't outnumbered anymore either.

It either means another Penal/Con on the field or faster Zis and both would not be a good idea.


If it's AoE healing then yeah it would be dirt cheap. But if it's without AoE and behind vet, suddenly it's not something you can rely 100% on, during the early game.

The M3A1 is very powerful early game, but so is the T70. Looking at the T70, we can see it gets a powerful support ability that you can use after its optimal timing if you can keep it alive.

However, giving the M3A1 a powerful support ability would give your opponent almost no time to breathe and recover, and Sov isn’t really suffering in viability right now.

I think there should be some reward for keeping it alive, and Sov does lack on the field healing. However, I feel like giving it healing right after its optimal timing would be too oppressive, as the time after that is where your opponent can recover from its power and take advantage of your damaged squads and lack of AT.

I would give it a med crate ability once T3 is purchased. This would be a reward for keeping it alive, but hopefully prevent it from allowing Sov to apply relentless pressure on to its opponents.


That's a good point.

Maybe it's time to see if we can change the status quo of Soviets early mid game. Transfer the power budget of the T70 (scaled down) towards other parts of the soviet army.

If the T70 is as scary as a P2, you could then just make T3 cheaper (giving room to M5/Su76) or makes medics cheaper mp wise at the expense of say fuel, making the transition during the mid game less awkward.
29 Jul 2020, 11:23 AM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 03:42 AMSerrith


Well I agree that the M3 is quite powerful against OKW, a solution for that specific situation may be just putting faust behind a truck called in instead of a truck deployed.

I'd love to see the sooner faust to be frank. It would be a very good change imo
Similarly I think the scout car being able to toss a medkit on the ground would help it find a role when it's front line time has expired. No AOE. Just a kit if that's possible.
MMX
29 Jul 2020, 12:37 PM
#32
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


[...]
Similarly I think the scout car being able to toss a medkit on the ground would help it find a role when it's front line time has expired. No AOE. Just a kit if that's possible.


not an expert on this but i don't think a no-aoe medcrate is possible without the potential exploit to heal multiple squads at once if timed right. hence why the sturmpio version got changed to aoe heal a while back. but maybe passive heal for squads inside the transport à la 251 ht might be an option
29 Jul 2020, 13:46 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 12:37 PMMMX


not an expert on this but i don't think a no-aoe medcrate is possible without the potential exploit to heal multiple squads at once if timed right. hence why the sturmpio version got changed to aoe heal a while back. but maybe passive heal for squads inside the transport à la 251 ht might be an option
then a single AOE pack if required. I'm not a fan of the garrison healing for the soviet because they have only the HQ medics as is. The hope with the med kit is that you don't have to drag your AT gun all the way back to base or risk losing it and it's unable to garrison so it wouldn't fill the role I'm hoping for. But that's a personal take on it of course.
29 Jul 2020, 14:14 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 10:16 AMVipper
If one want to increase the utility of this unit one has to lower its shock value...

Doesn't work that way + other vehicles are perfectly fine having both, shock value and usefulness outside that one minute it arrived tn.
29 Jul 2020, 15:04 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 14:14 PMKatitof

Doesn't work that way + other vehicles are perfectly fine having both, shock value and usefulness outside that one minute it arrived tn.

Yes it does work that way. The only justification for the current shock value of the m3 is that it becomes less useful as the time goes by.
29 Jul 2020, 15:06 PM
#36
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 219

gotta agree that the scout car needs another function as well, compared to other early LV's.
-give it a capture point function like the kubel?
-able to put in mortar team and let it function like a mortar half-track?
-spotting flare ability like the mortar team, for good spotting ability?
29 Jul 2020, 17:09 PM
#37
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 15:04 PMVipper

Yes it does work that way. The only justification for the current shock value of the m3 is that it becomes less useful as the time goes by.


Who said that?
29 Jul 2020, 18:23 PM
#38
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143

Even if volks get the faust earlier i dont think theres enough muni to make it pay off. It delays the first stg even further.

I dunno...

I am kinda with ShadowLink here concerning the 223 as possible counter
29 Jul 2020, 18:23 PM
#39
avatar of Taksin02

Posts: 148

Add ram ability
29 Jul 2020, 19:29 PM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2020, 15:04 PMVipper

Yes it does work that way. The only justification for the current shock value of the m3 is that it becomes less useful as the time goes by.

Ok, I guess its high time to remove some utility from 222.

I'd say it does not need to auto find snipers and shoot planes, so we have to take away that utility or nerf it elsewhere.

222 does not become less useful as time goes by, it still harasses infantry and becomes literal map hack with decent anti air.

Its way too much in 1 package for early game shock vehicle.

You can pick what needs to go.

Oh, and don't try to play "it comes later" card, so does allied AT and its power is suitable for its timing.
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