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SU-85 and SU-76

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3 Aug 2020, 15:59 PM
#41
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1276 | Subs: 1



I don't watch tournaments and "pro" players. I believe you that SU-76 lacks a role, that's why it should get a better barrage or sth. In my theory, it would be viable. It seems logical that the original relic team thought it out like that... maybe, don't know. Right now it's role lacking due to the fact that P4s are really early and T70 is pretty powerful in good hands, albeit needs to play it safe if raketen and paks are on the field.

I did have some luck fielding SU-76 with conscripts in custom games, although the opponents weren't really skilled.

I might be wrong and maybe SU76 is useless right now but maybe, just maybe, the role hasn't been found. In theory, skipping maxims and zis to go for SU-76 with conscripts should in theory be viable, especially with the fast snare on conscripts. That's all in theory. Maybe somebody goes YOLO and builds SU76 and wins a game and shows that the SU76 has a role.

A lot of "META" was found. It was not straightaway clear from the patch notes. "This unit is getting these buffs" and then people go "Oh this unit was buffed, let's play around it", and hence a meta arrives. I mean, I've played Dota2 and often enough my experiments ended up in clear wins (top ranks in dota2). I don't believe that in a game with so many dynamic variables, there exists only one build order and few METAs. Maybe there exists a SU76 build that can be really viable vs distinct OST or OKW build orders. Who knows. I admittedly, don't

I mean we've had the issue of the SU76 already before, so I'll make my reply quick:
In my eyes, it lacks a role. It's stats seem fine for the most part, also compared to the StuG and the Puma. But you don't need the SU76 as Soviets.

If we look at the early-mid game in a somewhat even match, the worst LV you can face is the Luchs. But your T70 is already better than it and can beat the Luchs, so you're better off with the T70 since you also get excellent AI power. Similar reasoning for most things you could face: 222? 251? MG spam? Mortar spam? -> T70, the SU76 won't help you because it's barrage is relatively costly.
The only unit it could help you against is a Puma, but a semi decent OKW player won't build the Puma if you did not get a T70 beforehand.

And for the mid game, you always have the better option of the future-proof SU85. If you play T2 an need more AT, you're always better off with investing that bit of MP more into the ZiS and save up the fuel for the T34 or SU85 instead. If you play T1, back teching is often better as well since you will likely need an ATG for the late game anyway.

The SU76 is - as all AT units - a reactive unit that you don't buy proactively, but only when you need it. For the LV phase the T70 has all the AT you need. For the medium+ phase SOV has more reliable options. Additionally, the SU76 won't secure you points and support like a T70 does to get back the resource investment. And to top it off, SOV have to make this AI/AT choice in a phase where Penals have lost their initial shock value, Conscripts have not reached their 7-men plateau yet and Axis infantry is upgraded.
3 Aug 2020, 16:39 PM
#42
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 295

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2020, 15:45 PMMaret


There is some truth in your words. I saw only one really viable tactic with SU-76 - you massing t-70 and su-76, not go to t-4. But become viable only with defensive doctrine. Not popular choice, because you need very high skill and good control to realize such piano tactic. Light vehicles dies too fast in late game. ANd i even don't say about AT stuka strafe, that can kill all your light vehicle army from one strike. And yea, when i play against low skill opponent i can use su-76 very effective, but in equal skill fights - no. Who need stock armor unit that becomes good only with some tricky doctrine?
Also there is problem in core SU design - when unit do 2 jobs simultaneously. SU-76 made in this concept. When unit is good, it will lead to spam. Old su-76 have insane ROF with lower pen and free barrage, but you can build 3 and kill tiger with them, while free barrages used to wipe paks. Cancer situation.




So it used to be cancerous. Yeah, I guess SU76 with a buffed barrage is OP. Well, I hope they manage to bring life to the unit.
3 Aug 2020, 16:43 PM
#43
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 295

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2020, 15:34 PMLago


It used to have a weaker barrage, but no cost for it.

It was well-balanced for 1v1, and sometimes people would go for it instead of the T-70.

However, in teamgames you could spam the things. The SU-76 blob could take on most enemy vehicles with sheer volume of fire, and the stacked barrage would annihilate any infantry AT sent in to deal with them.


So it's original design, which I have been advocating was abused. Thanks for informing. Don't know what would make it viable then. Increased ROF and accel/speed would give it more survivability... but I don't really know.
3 Aug 2020, 17:12 PM
#44
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 68

don't know if its possible, but a suggestion: historically Su-76 was used mostly as a mobile artillery, with some tank killing too ofc.

how about changing it into a true multirole tank that it was?
making it like a mortar half-track and tank hunter?
removing the current barrage ability, for more slow firing, longer range, higher arcing shells. like a mortar team.
could function just like a mortar half-track, keeping the AT function, but both functions would have less performance than true AT, or true mortar.
3 Aug 2020, 17:38 PM
#45
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7351 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2020, 15:34 PMLago


It used to have a weaker barrage, but no cost for it.

It was well-balanced for 1v1, and sometimes people would go for it instead of the T-70.

However, in teamgames you could spam the things. The SU-76 blob could take on most enemy vehicles with sheer volume of fire, and the stacked barrage would annihilate any infantry AT sent in to deal with them.


I'll argue it was not well balanced for 1v1 as well. We would see the Su76 blob on maps like Crossing or Langres.

...


Ding ding ding. We have the best answer.

There's no room for an Su76 on an equal match. Cause on an equal match you would want a T70 as you should be behind after spending mp on AT nades, medics, a Zis gun (or reducing your AI even further with PTRS) and finally teching T3.

The problem with the Su76 is that it just delays your tech. If you need AT you are better off with a Zis gun. And it's not like you can just stall with Su76s into call in tanks.

The only weird scenarios on which i see the Su76 been the correct call, are against rushed Ostwinds or prolonged mechanized play from OKW with Stuka been involved.
3 Aug 2020, 17:49 PM
#46
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703

don't know if its possible, but a suggestion: historically Su-76 was used mostly as a mobile artillery, with some tank killing too ofc.

how about changing it into a true multirole tank that it was?
making it like a mortar half-track and tank hunter?
removing the current barrage ability, for more slow firing, longer range, higher arcing shells. like a mortar team.
could function just like a mortar half-track, keeping the AT function, but both functions would have less performance than true AT, or true mortar.

It maybe possible decision: T-70 for aggressive AI, while SU-76 more defensive backsitting unit, like StugE or HTMortar, but not so mobile and potent. Smoke sheels, regular slow-flying HE shells, like StugE. And some AT ability to make it potent against light vehicles.
But again SU-76 need rework to find at least place in the game. Simple buffs not working in this way. Any strong buffs in current state make spamming again.
4 Aug 2020, 22:16 PM
#47
avatar of agustinveinte

Posts: 27

The su-76 is a pretty underrated unit, and with good reason, there are simply better things to spend those resources on, if I need AT capacity, I'd rather build a Zis and save that fuel for something more useful. I love the su-85, in my opinion, it is the best TD in the game in price-performance ratio, especially in team games, if you have two in front negates all Axis armor, it is not damage or precision what It makes it so very effective, is the vision, "Focused Vision" is a great skill and if you have excess ammo you can use "Track" to catch tanks or detect support weapons, maybe they should move "Focused Vision" to Vet 1.
5 Aug 2020, 03:52 AM
#48
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4340 | Subs: 1

The su-76 is a pretty underrated unit, and with good reason, there are simply better things to spend those resources on, if I need AT capacity, I'd rather build a Zis and save that fuel for something more useful. I love the su-85, in my opinion, it is the best TD in the game in price-performance ratio, especially in team games, if you have two in front negates all Axis armor, it is not damage or precision what It makes it so very effective, is the vision, "Focused Vision" is a great skill and if you have excess ammo you can use "Track" to catch tanks or detect support weapons, maybe they should move "Focused Vision" to Vet 1.

If it's under rated with good reason I don't think it's under rated...
5 Aug 2020, 07:39 AM
#49
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1297

Why should you build su76 if you want the last tier asap? T70 is oppressive enough and then you move to t4. Noone can afford both lights and you will never balance it if you make t76 potent enough to make it a better choice than higher tier.
5 Aug 2020, 07:45 AM
#50
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703

Why should you build su76 if you want the last tier asap? T70 is oppressive enough and then you move to t4. Noone can afford both lights and you will never balance it if you make t76 potent enough to make it a better choice than higher tier.

Sad but true. In fact in T3 or even low tiers SU-76 don't have place. I think even if it will be available in T0 it still the same. If pgrens were moved to T0 and this made them playable, SU-76 could be moved to T4 with some tweaks. At least in T4 you can find work for it.
5 Aug 2020, 08:45 AM
#51
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1276 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2020, 07:45 AMMaret

Sad but true. In fact in T3 or even low tiers SU-76 don't have place. I think even if it will be available in T0 it still the same. If pgrens were moved to T0 and this made them playable, SU-76 could be moved to T4 with some tweaks. At least in T4 you can find work for it.

PGrens are a completely different topic. They were moved to T0 and became viable not because they suddenly become a much much better unit, but because they just came sooner and you could fit them into the build order without needing to stall and potentially even forcefully retreating your pios to get the building up.

Moving the SU76 is not a great idea in my opinion unless you want a complete rework of SOV T4. This would force it to become a StuG-like unit and SU85 must then be reworked to work against heavy units only. That's quite a task at this stage of the game.
5 Aug 2020, 11:10 AM
#52
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4340 | Subs: 1

Giving it more utility might make it attractive. It wouldn't have the killing power of the T70 but could scale past it. Power spike vs longer term investment. I think a smoke barrage would actually go a long way and help T1 soviet with mgs and schweres ect.
5 Aug 2020, 11:40 AM
#53
avatar of agustinveinte

Posts: 27


If it's under rated with good reason I don't think it's under rated...

Sorry, my English is bad, "I have good reason to underestimate it" is what I was trying to say.


5 Aug 2020, 19:59 PM
#54
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

If it swapped out its barrage for an indirect fire mode (like the StuG-E) it might be able to reclaim its 'Defensive T-70' niche. But the only other way I can think of it make the SU-76 relevant is to cripple the T-70's AT.
5 Aug 2020, 20:42 PM
#55
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15697 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Aug 2020, 19:59 PMLago
If it swapped out its barrage for an indirect fire mode (like the StuG-E) it might be able to reclaim its 'Defensive T-70' niche. But the only other way I can think of it make the SU-76 relevant is to cripple the T-70's AT.

T-70 got 45 penetration.
It can't even scratch anything larger then Luchs and even Luchs takes ages to kill and its utterly roflstomped by puma.

Its PTRS on tracks in terms of AT.
6 Aug 2020, 08:45 AM
#56
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1276 | Subs: 1


T-70 got 45 penetration.
It can't even scratch anything larger then Luchs and even Luchs takes ages to kill and its utterly roflstomped by puma.

Its PTRS on tracks in terms of AT.

No shit, AI specialist gets roflstomped by AT specialist.
The T70 has plenty of AT capability for its purpose and time window. That's part of the reason why the unit is such a no brainer for SOV.


Lago's proposal might be an idea, but touching SOV T3 in general is quite an issue. Nerf the T70 and something else needs to be buffed to compensate. Additionally, SOV can barely survive without LVs at the moment, at least in smaller modes. Optimal rework would basically also remove the strong need for an LV in the early mid game, but I am afraid this idea is quite far fetched.
6 Aug 2020, 08:57 AM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15697 | Subs: 7


No shit, AI specialist gets roflstomped by AT specialist.
The T70 has plenty of AT capability for its purpose and time window. That's part of the reason why the unit is such a no brainer for SOV.


Are you trying to say anything in particular, or just wanted to repeat after me that its AT is weak already, but use more and different words for it?

Anything that uses something of higher caliber then small arms can deal with at "at that stage of the game" and unless it would be converted into a tankette, it will always be capable of dealing with vehicles it deals right now, because they are cardboard units.

Lago's proposal might be an idea, but touching SOV T3 in general is quite an issue. Nerf the T70 and something else needs to be buffed to compensate. Additionally, SOV can barely survive without LVs at the moment, at least in smaller modes. Optimal rework would basically also remove the strong need for an LV in the early mid game, but I am afraid this idea is quite far fetched.

Totally agree, as it was said multiple times by multiple people in multiple contexts, T-70 is a crutch that holds soviets together. Tinker with it too little, nothing will change, tinker with it too much, whole faction will collapse as that's the extent of weight it carries on its shoulders after early game.

SU-76 will never be replacement nor alternative for it, regardless what would be done to one or the other and the only possible way to touch T-70 would be to make sure 7th con is unlocked freely with T3 instead of T4.
6 Aug 2020, 09:14 AM
#58
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 1276 | Subs: 1



Are you trying to say anything in particular, or just wanted to repeat after me that its AT is weak already, but use more and different words for it?

Anything that uses something of higher caliber then small arms can deal with at "at that stage of the game" and unless it would be converted into a tankette, it will always be capable of dealing with vehicles it deals right now, because they are cardboard units.

No I said that the T70 has decent AT capabilities for it's timing. Especially regarding that it is supposed to be an absolute AI specialist.


SU-76 will never be replacement nor alternative for it, regardless what would be done to one or the other and the only possible way to touch T-70 would be to make sure 7th con is unlocked freely with T3 instead of T4.

I agree on that, although this would probably be the nail in the coffin for Penal builds unless those get a buff as well.

One could also think about creating better synergy between Penals and SU76. That way the SU76 could better fill the AT gap that SOV T1 builds have and maybe allow for build without back teching? I am not sure how this could be done though apart from some PGren-like combined arms aura. But also this would probably include major reworks since Penals and SU76 were designed to function independently of each other, plus it would not eliminate the current issues with the T70. It could somehow give the SU76 a niche again that sets it apart from the SU85.
6 Aug 2020, 10:31 AM
#59
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703


One could also think about creating better synergy between Penals and SU76. That way the SU76 could better fill the AT gap that SOV T1 builds have and maybe allow for build without back teching? I am not sure how this could be done though apart from some PGren-like combined arms aura. But also this would probably include major reworks since Penals and SU76 were designed to function independently of each other, plus it would not eliminate the current issues with the T70. It could somehow give the SU76 a niche again that sets it apart from the SU85.


If SU-76 will become redesigned to some kind AI unit, some ideas could be real:

About SU-76:
1. If T1 deployed Su-76 got "Break thread" ability like UKF armored car have. Then you can drop AT-satchel on stunned vehicle. Ability also become unlocked when T4 deployed or 7-th cons upgrade made in T3.
2. SU-76 will get 2 types of shells like ISU-152:
AP rounds - 140 damage, but penetration from m-42. It could easily kill any LV from front, but don't become big threat to mediums.
HE rounds - some kind of stugE - low-velocity HE shells.
3. Smoke barrage

About T-70:
2 types of shell:
1. HE rounds- decreased ROF, srapnel shots from M-42. Less damage, but bigger AOE. Small penetration. It will inficlt more bleed damage and give axis more chances to safely retreat, than current snipe shots.
2. AP rounds. Current variant, but with drastically decreased AI.

Right now T-70 overshadow SU-76 in every aspect in his timeframe. It can fight against any LV and have very potent AI with superior mobility, also have turret and armor. While SU-76 casemate TD with low armor and non-consistent AI. Only AT is far superior than T-70, but who need such AT power in this timeframe?
IF both units will be AI. But while T-70 still have more mobility and turret, SU-76 will get some utility and AT ability. Just my thoughts. But SU-76 and T-70 problems should be solved together.
6 Aug 2020, 10:39 AM
#60
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15697 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Aug 2020, 10:31 AMMaret


If SU-76 will become redesigned to some kind AI unit, some ideas could be real

It never could be real, because 2/3 of that tier are already AI units.

Any AI oriented redesign to SU-76 is as real as pink unicorn.
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