Login

russian armor

SU-85 and SU-76

PAGES (7)down
2 Aug 2020, 14:34 PM
#21
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 69

Also think SU-85 is balanced combat-wise, but think it needs to be bumped up from 15pop to 16pop, and the fuel cost for it 130? can be perhaps be discussed.
2 Aug 2020, 14:41 PM
#22
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4355 | Subs: 1

i too think the su-85 has a bit too much going for it and greatly overshadows the su76 as a result much in the same way that the jackson makes like 193 different units pointless for the USF.

i actually agree with all the suggested changes in the OP, which is rare frankly...

the su85 shouldnt be your go to TD but instead the one you bring out when its needed for heavy armour. good in all situation TDs are bad design and since the soviet actually have 2 TDs its unacceptable (at the very least the jackson has the benefit of being the only dedicated TD stock)

some chages however id like to see, or at least discuss for both SU TDs would be looking at their vet

for the su76, vet 1 imo should be changed to augment the barrage. cooldown, cost or even firepower instead of the infantry tracking so that keeping one around even when you need your su85 is rewarded well.

additionally id like to see a rework for focused sight so that its not so much of a free boon (yess, it does reduce mobility and what not but given the reliability of the su85s gun, especially with vet... well frankly it shouldnt self spot for free)
what i suggest instead is a timed ability, with a munitions cost, that functions like the USF AT gun range boost. due to the su85s design its unable to chase and generally is defensive, so id suggest replacing both focus sight as a passive and tracking as a vet 1 ability with a combination of forward sight and take aim, giving it the ability to take that extra shot, at the cost of munitions and vulnerability making ti more of a tactical ability you need to time than something you only turn off when you need to flee. giving it say 15 seconds of self spotting and increased range (+10?) for 30 mu and a 30 or more second debuff makes it good to help secure a kill but vulnerable to counter attack

anyways thats my addition to the discussion. but if only the OP was applied i would accept that change as well.
2 Aug 2020, 15:10 PM
#23
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 198

i too think the su-85 has a bit too much going for it and greatly overshadows the su76 as a result much in the same way that the jackson makes like 193 different units pointless for the USF.

i actually agree with all the suggested changes in the OP, which is rare frankly...

the su85 shouldnt be your go to TD but instead the one you bring out when its needed for heavy armour. good in all situation TDs are bad design and since the soviet actually have 2 TDs its unacceptable (at the very least the jackson has the benefit of being the only dedicated TD stock)

some chages however id like to see, or at least discuss for both SU TDs would be looking at their vet

for the su76, vet 1 imo should be changed to augment the barrage. cooldown, cost or even firepower instead of the infantry tracking so that keeping one around even when you need your su85 is rewarded well.

additionally id like to see a rework for focused sight so that its not so much of a free boon (yess, it does reduce mobility and what not but given the reliability of the su85s gun, especially with vet... well frankly it shouldnt self spot for free)
what i suggest instead is a timed ability, with a munitions cost, that functions like the USF AT gun range boost. due to the su85s design its unable to chase and generally is defensive, so id suggest replacing both focus sight as a passive and tracking as a vet 1 ability with a combination of forward sight and take aim, giving it the ability to take that extra shot, at the cost of munitions and vulnerability making ti more of a tactical ability you need to time than something you only turn off when you need to flee. giving it say 15 seconds of self spotting and increased range (+10?) for 30 mu and a 30 or more second debuff makes it good to help secure a kill but vulnerable to counter attack

anyways thats my addition to the discussion. but if only the OP was applied i would accept that change as well.


I agree with this it is bad design and is a common trend with soviet and brit units . Having a unit that is amazing at everything with no real weakness is just a terrible idea look at the SU 152 for example . Why should it have amazing armour , amazing AI AND amazing AT AND Amazing range AND Amazing damage.

Look at the elephant in comparison .. only amazing at and range with clear weaknesses.
2 Aug 2020, 15:24 PM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1



The vision is focused. Its not a 360° vision buff. Its speed is nerfed during the ability. You cant toggle it willy nilly it has a cooldown.

That is true about focus sight but not for tracking. Tracking comes with no penalties.


Recon vehicles offer vision 360° are faster even with extra long sight. And mostly dont need an ability for it. Esp not one that slows you down and gives eye caps for tunnel vision.

Imo thats enough downsides to balance the upsides.

The problem comes form the fact that abilities stack and the unit has mini map information on top of that for the duration. A Su-85 with both abilities can see further than most (if not all) stock reckon vehicles. There is nothing to justify that.
2 Aug 2020, 15:37 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4355 | Subs: 1



I agree with this it is bad design and is a common trend with soviet and brit units . Having a unit that is amazing at everything with no real weakness is just a terrible idea look at the SU 152 for example . Why should it have amazing armour , amazing AI AND amazing AT AND Amazimg range AND Amazing damage.


this isnt an isu thread, but if has ok AT, not amazing, and thats there to justify its cost without being absurdly oppressive AI or being cheap enough to not sacrifice anything. balance is a funky thing, sometimes making a unit better but less accessible is a route to take. you take away the meh AT and you need to either buff its AI or cheapen it, which means its easier to field proper AT with it and then you have 2 units effectively fighting your infantry and your armour instead of one doing one or the other. however thats enough ISU discussion.
2 Aug 2020, 18:00 PM
#26
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 689

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2020, 15:24 PMVipper

That is true about focus sight but not for tracking. Tracking comes with no penalties.


The problem comes form the fact that abilities stack and the unit has mini map information on top of that for the duration. A Su-85 with both abilities can see further than most (if not all) stock reckon vehicles. There is nothing to justify that.


Tracking reveals inf on the minimap not tanks. That is not as benificial for a pure AT unit.

The combination of these abilities still leaves the su85 with nerfed speed stuck in it for a few seconds and vision is still in a cone.
If you use tracking without spotting then it is free of penalties. But then it does not see further then stock recon units i wager.

Other td's have either rof, hp, armour, camo, skill shot, turret, actual ai, speed or a combination over the su85. Its one and only signature feature over other td's is spotting and imo that is the justification and has to stay. Standardizing is not the solution to everything.

If the su85 gets something else then tracking or some pop or vet adjustments i am fine with that.
2 Aug 2020, 18:03 PM
#27
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4355 | Subs: 1



Tracking reveals inf on the minimap not tanks. That is not as benificial for a pure AT unit.

The combination of these abilities still leaves the su85 with nerfed speed stuck in it for a few seconds and vision is still in a cone.
If you use tracking without spotting then it is free of penalties. But then it does not see further then stock recon units i wager.

Other td's have either rof, hp, armour, camo, skill shot, turret, actual ai, speed or a combination over the su85. Its one and only signature feature over other td's is spotting and imo that is the justification and has to stay. Standardizing is not the solution to everything.

If the su85 gets something else then tracking or some pop or vet adjustments i am fine with that.

tracking also gives a small proper LOS buff, when combined with focus sight the su85 can see deep into the enemy lines
2 Aug 2020, 18:51 PM
#28
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 689


tracking also gives a small proper LOS buff, when combined with focus sight the su85 can see deep into the enemy lines


Yes very true. It however still is stuck with the penalties of focused sight if used in combination.

3 Aug 2020, 10:15 AM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1



Tracking reveals inf on the minimap not tanks. That is not as benificial for a pure AT unit.

The combination of these abilities still leaves the su85 with nerfed speed stuck in it for a few seconds and vision is still in a cone.
If you use tracking without spotting then it is free of penalties. But then it does not see further then stock recon units i wager.

Other td's have either rof, hp, armour, camo, skill shot, turret, actual ai, speed or a combination over the su85. Its one and only signature feature over other td's is spotting and imo that is the justification and has to stay. Standardizing is not the solution to everything.

If the su85 gets something else then tracking or some pop or vet adjustments i am fine with that.

Su-85 has one of the best guns in the game. The unit is cost efficient even without focus sight/trucking.
3 Aug 2020, 10:39 AM
#30
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 689

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2020, 10:15 AMVipper

Su-85 has one of the best guns in the game. The unit is cost efficient even without focus sight/trucking.


It is cost effective indeed. Imo with focused sight and tracking. Its been fine for years now.
And the best gun is ofset by no turret/no mg/no massive hp or armour/no high speed/no skill shot. Only its sight ability helps it get in the first or extra shot.

Whats left if we remove them?
Vet 1 is hollow then.
A relativly slow case mate td with no ai.
It already needs baby sitting, then it will need even more baby sitting.

And what will come in their place?
flares?
A snare?
A skill shot?
A he shot/mode?
A hull down mode?
Overdrive?

3 Aug 2020, 11:29 AM
#31
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 300

su76 should be a mobile light/medium vehicle barrage tank. The reason Soviets have 2 TDs (although su76 is not a TD in it's regard) is the fact that soviets have piss poor infantry AT. Brits have piats which, USF has zooks, Axis have the best panzershrecks. Soviets have "Fast" firing high caliber rifles that can easily deal with light vehicles but rely on low range satchel to kill tanks. SU76 is there as a cheaper alternative to SU-85 to complement ZiS builds. On first glance, you'd think it's got no place but it does. It should be a tank you get to push off mediums for less fuel, giving you time to bring out katyusha or t34-76.
It's got 400hp, 120 dmg (40 less than regular tanks), 160-180 penetration -> enough for mediums like OST P4 (hardly for OKW P4).

I think what would make it viable more is any buff to it's barrage. Whether CD or cost. It's role would then be to fill in the gaps between SU-85 and ZiS. More mobile, easier to escape vs infantry and better repositioning to deal with blobs with barrage.

I've heard somebody say that SU76 used to be OP. I haven't played the game when it came out so I don't know but that's how I see the SU76.

SU-85 should remain the same.
SU-76 should be a response unit. Has AT capabilities up to mediums. Has AI capabilities in a sense of barrage to support infantry.

ZiS is ... well, ZiS. Less mobile SU-76 that costs no fuel and has better penetration.

I think SU-76 exists in order to fill in that gap. If you go for penals/snipers, you can go to T3, skipping maxims and ZiS and yet not losing the early AT capabilities.

I think the unit is fine. It reinforces that Soviet versatility notion.
3 Aug 2020, 11:30 AM
#32
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2077

The problem is on axis side..which have no nondoc 60range high penetration unit.
- all the have is a stug with only low penetration and only 50 range on a nonturret casemate.
- panther which is only 50 range and low accu on the move and high price
- jp4 which is low penetration on a nonturret casemate for the same pricetag like jackson, firefly, Su85.


axis lack even a lategame spamable AI/gerneralist unit like a comet.
u can have p4..which are not this great as lategame unit. you will be hardcountert by anythink with a AT option

You can have brummbar...which let u stay in no AT. yes...you can combine brummbar and panther...which need alot more of micro than for example 3 comets which running around the map and are great vs anything, super fast, smoke all8sec, grenades, high armor and good AI

SU85 is great vs all armor targets..su76 is great for support and even delete team weapons and blobbs.
3 Aug 2020, 11:34 AM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15708 | Subs: 7

The problem is on axis side..which have no nondoc 60range high penetration unit.
- all the have is a stug with only low penetration and only 50 range on a nonturret casemate.
- panther which is only 50 range and low accu on the move and high price
- jp4 which is low penetration on a nonturret casemate for the same pricetag like jackson, firefly, Su85.

Well, allies do not have stock 300+ armor vehicles or spammable high armor 960 health tanks.
Also, funny you mention JP4, you know, that one axis unit that hardcounters all 3 allies TDs.

axis lack even a lategame spamable AI/gerneralist unit like a comet.

OKW leans on obers for late game AI, Ost has brummbar and we know how closing on borderline op that unit is at the moment.

u can have p4..which are not this great as lategame unit. you will be hardcountert by anythink with a AT option

So are shermans or T34/76, yet you see them in late game.

You can have brummbar...which let u stay in no AT. yes...you can combine brummbar and panther...which need alot more of micro than for example 3 comets which running around the map and are great vs anything, super fast, smoke all8sec, grenades, high armor and good AI

So don't try to spam 1 unit?
Get combined arms?
You know, like allies have to since forever?

SU85 is great vs all armor targets..su76 is great for support and even delete team weapons and blobbs.
3 Aug 2020, 13:12 PM
#34
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 300

The problem is on axis side..which have no nondoc 60range high penetration unit.
- all the have is a stug with only low penetration and only 50 range on a nonturret casemate.
- panther which is only 50 range and low accu on the move and high price
- jp4 which is low penetration on a nonturret casemate for the same pricetag like jackson, firefly, Su85.


axis lack even a lategame spamable AI/gerneralist unit like a comet.
u can have p4..which are not this great as lategame unit. you will be hardcountert by anythink with a AT option

You can have brummbar...which let u stay in no AT. yes...you can combine brummbar and panther...which need alot more of micro than for example 3 comets which running around the map and are great vs anything, super fast, smoke all8sec, grenades, high armor and good AI

SU85 is great vs all armor targets..su76 is great for support and even delete team weapons and blobbs.


Pretty much every Axis tank has enough penetration to penetrate every stock Allies tank. For heavies, Panther and stugs do the job perfectly. Panther wins 1v1 vs IS-2, Pershing, Comet, Churchill, KV-2, KV-1. It's stock.
For all I care the balance team can buff the JP4 penetration from 200 to 50000. Won't change anything, Jacksons, shermans, T34s, Churchills, Cromwells, etc... will all go down the same way they do now. Comet is the only exception. JP4 with 50000 penetration would penetrate Comet 100% of time unlike the 60% it does now. Also, pak40. If you manage to keep one pak alive, the veterancy on it makes it the fastest tank killer with 3 sec reload.

Yes, while Axis don't have a Comet, they do have Panther. While Comet is better at AI, Panther is better at AT. Comet has 30 more armour, Panther has 160 more HP. And for OKW, they have more than enough to deal with AI. Stuka zu Fuss and Obers are more than enough to deal with infantry while OST has the, like Katitof said, close to OP Brummbar.

If in late game you have 3 comets running... well, that's your problem. If you don't get Stugs, JP4, any heavy tank destroyer, Pak40, raketen.... not really a balance problem. Same can be said about 3 Panthers with pintle MG running and killing infantry and tanks alike.

If having brumbar and panther is too micro intensive then I don't know what isn't. You can easily bind brumbar on one control group and panther on another. Or even bind them in the same control group and use TAB to shift and direct.

JP4 is a 230 armour tank with better accuracy than SU-85 but lower penetration.... Again, because it doesn't need more penetration because 95% of time it will go against tanks that it will penetrate with 100% chance. And Stug. If you consider Stug bad, well... tough luck. Use the 50 range against allies mediums and it's fast ROF combined with (high) 200 penetration and you will easily deal with any Ally generalist tank. It's a tank with 4 sec (3sec vetted) reload with more than enough penetration to deal with almost all ally tanks. If you expect a cheap stug to counter IS-2, well.... that's your problem.
3 Aug 2020, 14:13 PM
#35
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703


SU-85 should remain the same.
SU-76 should be a response unit. Has AT capabilities up to mediums. Has AI capabilities in a sense of barrage to support infantry.

ZiS is ... well, ZiS. Less mobile SU-76 that costs no fuel and has better penetration.

I think SU-76 exists in order to fill in that gap. If you go for penals/snipers, you can go to T3, skipping maxims and ZiS and yet not losing the early AT capabilities.

I think the unit is fine. It reinforces that Soviet versatility notion.


How much did you see recently pro-games or tournament games where soviets go to T1 and SU-76? It sounds nice in theory, but facts says different - you almost never see SU-76 in-games. It arrive in timeframe where you don't need it. P4 comes 3-4 minutes later after T-70. Who in sane will build SU-76 as start unit, for what you will built it? For barrages? T-70 kills team weapons much easier and effective than SU-76 with barrage. Even M5 quad better as team weapon killer. Risky, but at least do its job.

It will be nice to see, if SU-76 will be locked behing special upgrade in T3 and T3 will get discount to fuel. How people do you think will built such upgrade to unlock SU-76? No one. Just more earlier T-70 give much more power and nothing else.

Su-76 lacks role in-game. You can find tons of explanations why it need for SU, but reality says different. It could be a choice, if axis have access to earlier mediums or sub-mediums (like short P4), but we don't have such strategies now.

3 Aug 2020, 15:32 PM
#36
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 300

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2020, 14:13 PMMaret


How much did you see recently pro-games or tournament games where soviets go to T1 and SU-76? It sounds nice in theory, but facts says different - you almost never see SU-76 in-games. It arrive in timeframe where you don't need it. P4 comes 3-4 minutes later after T-70. Who in sane will build SU-76 as start unit, for what you will built it? For barrages? T-70 kills team weapons much easier and effective than SU-76 with barrage. Even M5 quad better as team weapon killer. Risky, but at least do its job.

It will be nice to see, if SU-76 will be locked behing special upgrade in T3 and T3 will get discount to fuel. How people do you think will built such upgrade to unlock SU-76? No one. Just more earlier T-70 give much more power and nothing else.

Su-76 lacks role in-game. You can find tons of explanations why it need for SU, but reality says different. It could be a choice, if axis have access to earlier mediums or sub-mediums (like short P4), but we don't have such strategies now.



I don't watch tournaments and "pro" players. I believe you that SU-76 lacks a role, that's why it should get a better barrage or sth. In my theory, it would be viable. It seems logical that the original relic team thought it out like that... maybe, don't know. Right now it's role lacking due to the fact that P4s are really early and T70 is pretty powerful in good hands, albeit needs to play it safe if raketen and paks are on the field.

I did have some luck fielding SU-76 with conscripts in custom games, although the opponents weren't really skilled.

I might be wrong and maybe SU76 is useless right now but maybe, just maybe, the role hasn't been found. In theory, skipping maxims and zis to go for SU-76 with conscripts should in theory be viable, especially with the fast snare on conscripts. That's all in theory. Maybe somebody goes YOLO and builds SU76 and wins a game and shows that the SU76 has a role.

A lot of "META" was found. It was not straightaway clear from the patch notes. "This unit is getting these buffs" and then people go "Oh this unit was buffed, let's play around it", and hence a meta arrives. I mean, I've played Dota2 and often enough my experiments ended up in clear wins (top ranks in dota2). I don't believe that in a game with so many dynamic variables, there exists only one build order and few METAs. Maybe there exists a SU76 build that can be really viable vs distinct OST or OKW build orders. Who knows. I admittedly, don't
3 Aug 2020, 15:32 PM
#37
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703

Really, current SU-76 situation highly reminde me old pgrens. In old times you need built T2 to get them and after that, they were very costly unit and OH always have better variants to not built them. They were out of timeframe and OH startegies. SU-76 in the same spot.
3 Aug 2020, 15:33 PM
#38
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 689



Pretty much every Axis tank has enough penetration to penetrate every stock Allies tank. For heavies, Panther and stugs do the job perfectly. Panther wins 1v1 vs IS-2, Pershing, Comet, Churchill, KV-2, KV-1. It's stock.
For all I care the balance team can buff the JP4 penetration from 200 to 50000. Won't change anything, Jacksons, shermans, T34s, Churchills, Cromwells, etc... will all go down the same way they do now. Comet is the only exception. JP4 with 50000 penetration would penetrate Comet 100% of time unlike the 60% it does now. Also, pak40. If you manage to keep one pak alive, the veterancy on it makes it the fastest tank killer with 3 sec reload.

Yes, while Axis don't have a Comet, they do have Panther. While Comet is better at AI, Panther is better at AT. Comet has 30 more armour, Panther has 160 more HP. And for OKW, they have more than enough to deal with AI. Stuka zu Fuss and Obers are more than enough to deal with infantry while OST has the, like Katitof said, close to OP Brummbar.

If in late game you have 3 comets running... well, that's your problem. If you don't get Stugs, JP4, any heavy tank destroyer, Pak40, raketen.... not really a balance problem. Same can be said about 3 Panthers with pintle MG running and killing infantry and tanks alike.

If having brumbar and panther is too micro intensive then I don't know what isn't. You can easily bind brumbar on one control group and panther on another. Or even bind them in the same control group and use TAB to shift and direct.

JP4 is a 230 armour tank with better accuracy than SU-85 but lower penetration.... Again, because it doesn't need more penetration because 95% of time it will go against tanks that it will penetrate with 100% chance. And Stug. If you consider Stug bad, well... tough luck. Use the 50 range against allies mediums and it's fast ROF combined with (high) 200 penetration and you will easily deal with any Ally generalist tank. It's a tank with 4 sec (3sec vetted) reload with more than enough penetration to deal with almost all ally tanks. If you expect a cheap stug to counter IS-2, well.... that's your problem.


Could not have worded it better. 100% thumbs up from me.
3 Aug 2020, 15:34 PM
#39
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

I've heard somebody say that SU76 used to be OP. I haven't played the game when it came out so I don't know but that's how I see the SU76.


It used to have a weaker barrage, but no cost for it.

It was well-balanced for 1v1, and sometimes people would go for it instead of the T-70.

However, in teamgames you could spam the things. The SU-76 blob could take on most enemy vehicles with sheer volume of fire, and the stacked barrage would annihilate any infantry AT sent in to deal with them.
3 Aug 2020, 15:45 PM
#40
avatar of Maret

Posts: 703


A lot of "META" was found. It was not straightaway clear from the patch notes. "This unit is getting these buffs" and then people go "Oh this unit was buffed, let's play around it", and hence a meta arrives. I mean, I've played Dota2 and often enough my experiments ended up in clear wins (top ranks in dota2). I don't believe that in a game with so many dynamic variables, there exists only one build order and few METAs. Maybe there exists a SU76 build that can be really viable vs distinct OST or OKW build orders. Who knows. I admittedly, don't


There is some truth in your words. I saw only one really viable tactic with SU-76 - you massing t-70 and su-76, not go to t-4. But become viable only with defensive doctrine. Not popular choice, because you need very high skill and good control to realize such piano tactic. Light vehicles dies too fast in late game. ANd i even don't say about AT stuka strafe, that can kill all your light vehicle army from one strike. And yea, when i play against low skill opponent i can use su-76 very effective, but in equal skill fights - no. Who need stock armor unit that becomes good only with some tricky doctrine?
Also there is problem in core SU design - when unit do 2 jobs simultaneously. SU-76 made in this concept. When unit is good, it will lead to spam. Old su-76 have insane ROF with lower pen and free barrage, but you can build 3 and kill tiger with them, while free barrages used to wipe paks. Cancer situation.


PAGES (7)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
64 bit beta
Event in Progress

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag Scotch
  • Oberkommando West flag VonAsten
  • U.S. Forces flag [NS] aerafield
  • U.S. Forces flag T.R. CrossFire
uploaded by aerafield

Board Info

192 users are online: 4 members and 188 guests
Clarity, Mr. Someguy, Crecer13, achpawel
72 posts in the last 24h
550 posts in the last week
2043 posts in the last month
Registered members: 21155
Welcome our newest member, hammerhead_2002
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM