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Partisan Anti-Infantry Squads - Cooldown on spawn tweak

23 Jul 2020, 11:12 AM
#1
avatar of Partisanship

Posts: 260

Hello, I'd like to just preface this topic by stating that I am not particularly hard-pressed about whether or not this buff comes through. If anything, I am just curious about what the majority of the forum members here feel about what I am about to bring up.

It has been several patches ago when Partisan squads, both AI and AT variants, received a change to their ability cooldowns on spawn. I was given the impression that this was primarily to tackle the issue of AT partisans spawning to immediately snare a vehicle, which offered more or less zero counter-play. For that, I whole-heartedly agree with the change, as it was a little silly if anything else.

That said, I do not think it is ideal to also apply this change to the AI variant, as this hampers their shock value to a significant degree. Due to their relatively feeble survivability, as well as their middling if not unreliable accuracy, the loss of the ability to throw a nade means they are far less reliable in uprooting garrisoned units on call-in, and that was a convenient and powerful part of their role prior to the change. Now, if I were to face a garrisoned unit, I'd have to invest in the manpower, hope nobody spots them for the entire duration of the cooldown, then wander on over to the garrison to pop the molotov or grenade. By then, the fight is usually over.

And since I've seen a few comments on here that have disregarded the AI varient as the lesser of the two options, I am wondering how people would feel if the cooldown on spawn is either reduced (so you can still have time to pop out of a building if you were quick on reaction) or removed in order to return some power to the unit.
23 Jul 2020, 11:16 AM
#2
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

I think the whole reason for this change at the time was to deny retreat wipes by just spawning them in at a convenient building in the backline, and grenades help hugely with that. I think all units have either gotten a cool down/call in performance nerf or completely lost the ability to be called in from buildings.

Partisans could do with a complete rework, they are very interesting units but don't live up to all the changes that the game has seen over the last 2 years.
23 Jul 2020, 12:33 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17568 | Subs: 8

I see why regular nade is on CD, but molotov that DOES REQUIRE UPGRADE BEFORE USE has no excuse starting on CD as well, especially since it does not crit kill for years now.
23 Jul 2020, 12:54 PM
#4
avatar of Sir Edgelord

Posts: 126

Partisans could do with a complete rework, they are very interesting units but don't live up to all the changes that the game has seen over the last 2 years.

It is rather hard to do a complete rework of these units, so, what ideas do you propose?
And yeah, will this idea also consider putting AI Parties in more commanders? Because having only the AT version everywhere is rather annoying, even tho useful.
23 Jul 2020, 12:56 PM
#5
avatar of Sir Edgelord

Posts: 126

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 12:33 PMKatitof
I see why regular nade is on CD, but molotov that DOES REQUIRE UPGRADE BEFORE USE has no excuse starting on CD as well, especially since it does not crit kill for years now.

I think that's exactly what we need to begin with the Parties if they're ever getting changes.
Small steps's the way.
23 Jul 2020, 13:03 PM
#6
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2


It is rather hard to do a complete rework of these units, so, what ideas do you propose?
And yeah, will this idea also consider putting AI Parties in more commanders? Because having only the AT version everywhere is rather annoying, even tho useful.


I once suggested to make them shit combat troops but super versatile. It was not specific to either the AT or AI version though.

The basic idea was to give them all kinds of abilities but make then bad at fighting (list below just suggestions, not everything at once but a selection that fits best):

elite camo, normal mines, flare mines, heavy mines, build wires, build normal sandbags, AT grenades, molotovs, smoke, oorah, demo charge, booby traps, satchel etc etc. Maybe even something like tracking that would enhance their sight temporarily for mun and the possibility to repair stuff at the reduced rate like Conscripts in some commanders. Higher decap/cap rate is possible as well.


Molotovs/AT grenades could maybe even be used without teching, this could increase the synergy with Penal and Conscript builds if you want the gamble. They would be high utility units that you want to keep out of the fight but instead use as real infiltration and sabotage your opponent. They should not to much damage though during a fight, maybe like the old Combat engineer level of bad (with an option to upgrade?). They would be really unique, fit the theme and also fit into the Soviet faction design.
23 Jul 2020, 13:22 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

....
It has been several patches ago when Partisan squads, both AI and AT variants, received a change to their ability cooldowns on spawn. I was given the impression that this was primarily to tackle the issue of AT partisans spawning to immediately snare a vehicle, which offered more or less zero counter-play. For that, I whole-heartedly agree with the change, as it was a little silly if anything else.
...

The CD on grenades was introduced for all infiltration units and not just partisan and for good reason.

Partisan currently are a cost efficient unit, the problem relies with the commander and not the unit.
23 Jul 2020, 13:41 PM
#8
avatar of Sir Edgelord

Posts: 126



I once suggested to make them shit combat troops but super versatile. It was not specific to either the AT or AI version though.

The basic idea was to give them all kinds of abilities but make then bad at fighting (list below just suggestions, not everything at once but a selection that fits best):

elite camo, normal mines, flare mines, heavy mines, build wires, build normal sandbags, AT grenades, molotovs, smoke, oorah, demo charge, booby traps, satchel etc etc. Maybe even something like tracking that would enhance their sight temporarily for mun and the possibility to repair stuff at the reduced rate like Conscripts in some commanders. Higher decap/cap rate is possible as well.


Let's talk about each of these, to see if they could be actually useful in the role you proposed:
>Elite camo.
I know about normal camo, and just wonder how Elite one differs from a normal one.
>Normal mines.
Yeah seems about right.
>Flare mines.
Would make sense after a veterancy, since it overlaps with the idea of Tracking, and even so, there is already a map Track ability in the Partisan commander, so eh...
>Heavy mines.
No idea what you meant by that, but I say no, even if changed to a Demo charge, because Engies already have it.
>Build wires
I can't see why you would give them such an ability, because it makes no sense from a gameplay and historical perspectives.
>Normal sandbags.
Yeah, okay.
>AT Grenades.
Well, for an AT version only.
>Molotovs.
AI already have it.
>Smoke.
It would make sense for an AI version of the Partisans, with their PPSH and good DPS up close.
>Oorah!
It makes no sense, since Oorah! is for units that go into combat, like Conscripts. If you mean to give them this ability to close the gap faster, then just Sprint makes more sense.
>Booby traps.
I believe they already have it after a veterancy, no? Or I am being retarded?
>Satchels.
I think for AT versions only doe.
What I think is that your idea is good, it just has to make sure that both versions get different abilities, thus treatment, and more viability.
Like, both versions may have an increased decap/cap and mines, as well as Elite camo and sandbags, but an AI version may have:
Normal nades, Molotov, Sprint, Booby traps, Smoke, Flare mines.
an AT version may have:
Satchels, the Tracking you were talking about, and some sort of AT-only mines. Maybe even the repair you were talking about.

Just me thinking "out loud".
Also, any cost changes for them, or you think they would be still fine?

About upgrades:
I think, with the idea of bad survivability and fighting capability, they are supposed to somehow scale into the late game for being useful, so the upgrades shall improve their fighting capabilities with a little of survivability on top.
AI ones may have a 50Muni upgrade that takes away their slots, gives them the 5th man with a PPSH, and 2 STGs. Also will improve the damage of the PPSHs.
AT ones may have a 60Muni upgrade, which will not take their weapon slot, with adding a 5th man with a PTRS, and may give them the AT satchel instead of a normal AT nade. Veterancy doe will not decrease the cost of it.

Also, I think the 1st 2 veterancies for the Parties shall improve their survivability, too.
Like, for AI guys it's:
Vet 1-Ability to place Booby traps and survivability.
Vet 2-Ability to throw Satchels and survivability.
Vet 3-idk lol

Also idk about AT ones exactly.
23 Jul 2020, 13:47 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17568 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 13:22 PMVipper

The CD on grenades was introduced for all infiltration units and not just partisan and for good reason.

Partisan currently are a cost efficient unit, the problem relies with the commander and not the unit.


As someone who actually plays with the commander, the problem lies PRECISELY in AI partisans, their impotency when called not under PERFECT conditions and their lack of any kind of scaling, they do get stars, but such low stat values with them they are easily outclassed by everything else and can't even attempt to fight anything that isn't jumped weapon team that isn't set up yet.

They have no survivability at all and will easily lose to most infantries, their concussion mine functions fine, but lasts too short for them to do anything and trying to combo it with a nade every single time racks up excruciating muni cost.

For partisans to be useful unit they need to get better accuracy vet if they are meant to be squishy or 5th man and improved rec acc vet if they are supposed to fight even regular vet3 grens.

Even osttruppen have incomparably better scaling.
23 Jul 2020, 14:04 PM
#10
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

snip


I have not used Partisans for a while, so I'd rather stay away from making more exact suggestions such as "give them +30% accuracy at vet 2" or so. That's also why I can't say too much about cost changes at the moment. From my memories I think they bled you quite a lot for what they offered, but that memory is a bit faded so I'll leave it at that.

In general I think they should scale mostly for survivability and ambushing. So RA bonusses, but they could also get price reductions on their abilities and/or reinforcement, maybe even become an okay combat unit with first strike to put in a burst into a flanked MG if needed before being bad again once the first strike is over.

Regarding some of your points:
- elite camo: Some units lose camo once they move ("normal" camo). Partisans should not lose theirs when moving.
- heavy mine: Like the Riegel mine, immobilizing vehicles. It's debatable how fair this is since this takes up a whole commander slot for other factions, but I was just making a list of what could be done.
- wires: A tool of diversion and blocking your opponent. Usually wires are not build as much later in the game, so that's probably a very minor point.
- Oorah/sprint: I agree on that. Just an ability that makes them run quicker.
- regarding abilities they already have: Yes, I just added them to make clear that Partisans should get a completely new set of abilities and the old ones are up for debate as well. Otherwise there could be confusion what happens to those.


One could also merge the Partisans and then give them two upgrade options for AT or AI, but to be honest since all these changes - including my suggestion - would cause a lot of work I doubt that any of this will be implemented at the current stage. Maybe it's just the smarter approach to buff Partisans slightly until they become somewhat usable again.
23 Jul 2020, 14:21 PM
#11
avatar of Sir Edgelord

Posts: 126

One could also merge the Partisans and then give them two upgrade options for AT or AI, but to be honest since all these changes - including my suggestion - would cause a lot of work I doubt that any of this will be implemented at the current stage. Maybe it's just the smarter approach to buff Partisans slightly until they become somewhat usable again.

That's exactly the problem with the modern state of CoH2 balance. It is good, but very shaky. Touch anything wrong and everything breaks. That's why we gotta do baby steps. Sad sometimes, because some of the ideas of the community are really good. Just too groundbreaking.
23 Jul 2020, 14:32 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 13:47 PMKatitof

As someone who actually plays with the commander, the problem lies PRECISELY in AI partisans, their impotency when called not under PERFECT conditions and their lack of any kind of scaling, they do get stars, but such low stat values with them they are easily outclassed by everything else and can't even attempt to fight anything that isn't jumped weapon team that isn't set up yet.

The unit is dirty cheap and comes with tone of utility.

Their vet bonus are great and are inline with other ambush unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 13:47 PMKatitof

They have no survivability at all and will easily lose to most infantries, their concussion mine functions fine, but lasts too short for them to do anything and trying to combo it with a nade every single time racks up excruciating muni cost.

Given their cost they do fine

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 13:47 PMKatitof

For partisans to be useful unit they need to get better accuracy vet if they are meant to be squishy or 5th man and improved rec acc vet if they are supposed to fight even regular vet3 grens.

The unit can gets up +90% accuracy with vet pls check facts before posting

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 13:47 PMKatitof

Even osttruppen have incomparably better scaling.

Not really

This thread is about CD on grenades (which is in inline with other infiltration units and there is no reason not to start on CD) if in your opion Partisans are UP I suggest you start another.
23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17568 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 14:32 PMVipper

The unit is dirty cheap and comes with tone of utility.

Their vet bonus are great and are inline with other ambush unit.

Their vet bonus total is lower then any other ambush unit, specifically on rec acc part.
Their base rec acc is also nowhere near any other ambush unit.

Given their cost they do fine

Their base stats are, their scaling is not.

The unit can gets up +90% accuracy with vet pls check facts before posting

Please play the game and use the unit against vetted infantry, feel free to post a replay or other proof of how amazing that ends up to be.

Not really

Ya rly.
https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

This thread is about CD on grenades (which is in inline with other infiltration units and there is no reason not to start on CD) if in your opion Partisans are UP I suggest you start another.

This thread started as such and evolved into overall unit one.

You'd be aware of that if you read any other thing then title and my replay to you.
23 Jul 2020, 15:32 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 14:32 PMVipper
...


Does the ST nade start on cd as well?
23 Jul 2020, 15:36 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1



Does the ST nade start on cd as well?

Yes it does.
23 Jul 2020, 15:47 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

Their vet bonus total is lower then any other ambush unit, specifically on rec acc part.
Their base rec acc is also nowhere near any other ambush unit.

The cost is "also nowhere near any other ambush unit."

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

Their base stats are, their scaling is not.

If you are expecting to use Partisan as your mainline infatry you are simply doing something wrong. And that is why the unit is filled with utility.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

Please play the game...

We have established that I play the game more than you.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

and use the unit against vetted infantry, feel free to post a replay or other proof of how amazing that ends up to be.

The unit cost 210 I am not sure why you think it should be able to go toe toe with upganned vetted more expensive infatry.

The fact remain that the unit gets a total 50+40%=90% accuracy bonus from veterancy contrary to your claim and they do not need more.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

Ya rly.
https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

Pls start reading before posting:
Osttruppen Squad/Partisans

Vet 1
Unlocks the "Field First Aid" ability/"Concussive Trap" ability

point goes to Partisan
vet 2
+40% accuracy,-25% rech. Pf/25% CD,-17% RA,-40% rech. Mol,+50% first strike
point goes to Partisan


-20% CD, -28.5% RA/+40% accuracy,+25% Molotov cocktail's throwing distance
point goes to Partisan

Partisan get great vet bonuses contrary to your claim

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 15:17 PMKatitof

This thread started as such and evolved into overall unit one.

You'd be aware of that if you read any other thing then title and my replay to you.

In other words you have decided to hijack and derail yet another thread.

The unit is cost efficient, it might have some issues but having grenades on CD or needing more accuracy are not one of them.
23 Jul 2020, 17:47 PM
#17
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Katitof, partisans only get +40% accuracy at Vet3. The other bonus is a camouflage bonus only. Are they are different abilities?
23 Jul 2020, 18:57 PM
#18
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

I think partisans are mostly fine. They are not supposed to be obersoldaten but an annoyance to the enemy to take their attention and divert resources from the front. That said if they get buffs it should be to their vet, specifically improving their ambush power. Perhaps even increased durability when attacking from ambush camo. They are very cheap and have much utility so any buffs they receive need to be extremely focused to prevent over use.

Another thing they might be able to make use of would be the ability to construct a forward reinforcement point so that they can stay behind enemy lines after an ambush.
23 Jul 2020, 21:18 PM
#19
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

The Vipper - Kaitof war begins anew.

I already posted this in the Partisan tactics rework thread, but I think they should get combat buffs and a name change to irregulars to make their bugged performance more thematically fitting.

The problem with turning them in to a utility unit imo is that that is what conscripts currently are. The amount of utility required to compete with conscript’s utility would have to be crazy!
23 Jul 2020, 22:50 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

The Vipper - Kaitof war begins anew.

There is no war. In a war there is something to be gained and I have nothing to gain in these exchanges. I respond to things that are simply wrong. It is like having to swat to flock of mosquitoes, it unpleasant.


I already posted this in the Partisan tactics rework thread, but I think they should get combat buffs and a name change to irregulars to make their bugged performance more thematically fitting.

The problem with turning them in to a utility unit imo is that that is what conscripts currently are. The amount of utility required to compete with conscript’s utility would have to be crazy!

Partisan are not bad, there are simply better commander out there.
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