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Sander's personal balance changes

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7 Jul 2020, 18:07 PM
#101
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

M5 HT
AA seems fair but the medic drop seems pointless. If you want to give them heal, just make it equal to OH HT heal.

I don't really want to create a battle bus that can heal squads on the way to / in between / after engagements. The difference compared to the 251 is that the latter doesn't have fire from hold.


T-34
Bad direction for the change.
You are incentivizing the interaction to be towards ram + offmap by removing the enginge damage component and going for prolonged stun and also increasing the penetration.

Mirage's proposal seems more straightforward.

I disagree. In my experience the majority of times a rammed (super)heavy can still move out of the way of the offmap after only getting stunned. It's usually the (heavy) engine damage that makes it too slow to get away in time (after also getting stunned) or that leaves it incredibly vulnerable to a follow up attack.
aaa
7 Jul 2020, 18:13 PM
#102
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1484

Too much of bad stuff to even think of making it into the game. Conscript repair kit is utter trash that should never be in game alongside with all doctrines that have it.

Nerfing penals. Is that serious? They are already not viable. 162 mp to reinforce. Only shocks and mandos are more expensive. Hard countered by tanks and mgs.

Remove AT satchel for some functional AT. No one at high level ever hit target with AT satchel. Normal satchel also does nothing at all
7 Jul 2020, 19:15 PM
#103
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Soviet changes

Combat Engineers, M5 HT, SU76, T70, SU85, Katjusha, 120mm mortar

Yes. Good changes

Penals

Seems like an interesting idea. I could see how going T1 for Penals into T2 for Zis is viable with these changes. Not sure about the smoke grenade, couldn turn out to be a bit too good in combination with the satchel.

Ram

I am glad you agree Ram + off map is very annoying. I don't know if the changes will make the cancerous and next to impossible to counter ram+ off map combo harder to do because 8 seconds stun on penetration still seems pretty strong. Would like to see what the current stats are regarding ram. How does the proposed ram compare to the one we have in live now?

ISU

I would probably prefer a AOE reduction in combination with a rear armour nerf. The AOE is simply too much for a 70 range unit. Too many BS wipes happening. I don't really know why the heavy tanks got their AOE and scatter adjusted but the ISU was allowed to remain so wipey?

Mechanized Support Tactics

Both ISU doctrines need to lose the IL2 bombs. If you take them away from Mechanized Support people will just go Shocks + ISU and nothing has been achieved.

Missing

Slight nerf for Shocks, they are a bit too good. Good Shock usage makes OKW T1 builds next to impossible because Volks just can't do anything against them. Even Thompson Rangers or LMG Paratroopers can be dealt with easier as Axis infantry can actually damage them.
7 Jul 2020, 19:25 PM
#104
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

UKF changes

AEC, AEC tech, Valentine, medic, LM, Resupply HT

Yes, good changes.

Infantry Sections

- Need some sort of real nerf, either reduce moving accuracy to 0.4 or think about locking bolster behind additional muni upgrade that takes up a weapon slot. That way the UKF player can't invest as much muni into off-maps, grenades and mines and double Bren 5 man IS are a thing of the past. It will also delay having 4 or 5 bolstered Infantry Sections running over Axis mainlines without breaking a sweat.

Lend Lease Assault

Good idea to give the doctrine some late game. Removing the Vehicle Crew repairs is a bad idea though because they synergize well with M10s. Considering this doctrine has a mobile assault theme to it (despite being called lend lease) I wouldn't change it like that. Maybe try to merge 2 of the existing abilities into one slot and add the planes in the free slot. This change would make the doctrine more similar to Ostheer Assault Grenadier doctrines that have Tigers and other late-game stuff.

Missing

Hold the Line of Special Weapons Regiment is bugged and overpriced. Miragefla has a good fix for it in his balance mod. Also remove the requirement to upgrade weapon racks at HQ before the Resupply HT is allowed to dish out weapons. I don't know why this was ever implemented. Part of the reason why you want to get a resupply HT is to get the weapons. The Vickers K are not even much better than the regular Brens anyway so this really makes no sense at this point. I would also give the Firefly a slight penetration buff with vet 2 (+10% maybe). It doesn't have enough penetration to reliably penetrate Axis heavy tanks. Good luck dealing with a KT with 210 max penetration at vet 3. Keeping in mind reload and mobility it just isn't fair for the Firefly to have that much less penetration than SU85 and Jackson.



7 Jul 2020, 19:34 PM
#105
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

USF changes

Riflemen, M20, Stuart, Jackson, Ambulance, Pak Howi, M3/M5, P47

Yes, good changes.

Scott

Keep the firepower but remove the defensive vet 1 smoke. It already has smoke shells anyway so it doesn't need it. 400 HP + 2 types of smoke for a mobile long range unit like the Scott is just completely ridiculous.

WC 51

Not enough. That thing is OP in too many ways. Too cheap, capping, a ton of wiping potential, Mark Target, vehicle crew. It's crazy. Remove mark target + artillery barrage + make it more expensive.

Calliope

Too much firepower compared to other rocket artillery. You can safely use it to shotgun units from close range without any chance of retreating in time. Make the cool down between the rockets a bit longer and lower armour as you suggested.

Rear Echelon Grenades

Remove the ability and replace it with a copy paste of the Ostheer Grenadier rifle grenade. Another very very poor design that should have never been implemented.

Missing

I don't like sprinting tripple elite zook 5 man high survivability Rangers rendering my vehicles useless without any activated braincells from my opponent. Why was this implemented? Double Schreck Pgrens are balanced because of their vulnerability of getting wiped but the same can't be said about Rangers and on top of that 3 elite zooks pack a way harder punch than 2 Pschrecks. Make it so the Rangers can only pick up two elite zooks and not three.
7 Jul 2020, 19:35 PM
#106
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1681






I disagree. In my experience the majority of times a rammed (super)heavy can still move out of the way of the offmap after only getting stunned. It's usually the (heavy) engine damage that makes it too slow to get away in time (after also getting stunned) or that leaves it incredibly vulnerable to a follow up attack.



Uhmm no, if you call-in the plane just before the ram takes place, you cut-down an important 1-2s and the plane arrives no problem. 5 seconds is just insane as others have pointed already, lets not even talk about 8 seconds...

Again, ram as vet1 is the perfect solution. No more out of nowhere T34 surprise, you can get prepared, and the soviet players must put into a balance if he wants to lose that vetted T34 and risk not killing elefant or keep it.
7 Jul 2020, 19:51 PM
#107
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Uhmm no, if you call-in the plane just before the ram takes place, you cut-down an important 1-2s and the plane arrives no problem. 5 seconds is just insane as others have pointed already, lets not even talk about 8 seconds...

Only if it's on the edge of the map. Near the middle of any map, with the 5 second stun there is almost always enough to dodge sideways unless the vehicle also gets a (heavy) engine crit.

Anyhow, everything would be up for testing and finetuning anyway.


Again, ram as vet1 is the perfect solution.

There is nothing perfect about removing a unique and clutch ability to make room. Counterintuitive to the game's core concept too.
7 Jul 2020, 21:02 PM
#108
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1226




Uhmm no, if you call-in the plane just before the ram takes place, you cut-down an important 1-2s and the plane arrives no problem. 5 seconds is just insane as others have pointed already, lets not even talk about 8 seconds...

Again, ram as vet1 is the perfect solution. No more out of nowhere T34 surprise, you can get prepared, and the soviet players must put into a balance if he wants to lose that vetted T34 and risk not killing elefant or keep it.


Imo ram stays as it is (maybe a delay in activation can work) or is replaced with something like flanking speed. Making ram a vet ability is mind bogginly wrong imo.

Good you got it to vet 1 now you can suicide yourself against tanks wich you will only slow down and do a bit of damage to while others need to finish to finish it off.

You are not only garateed loose 300 mp and 90 fuel you also are garateed to loose a vetted unit. Makes no sense to move a suicide ability to vet 1. It better damn well have a 50% survival rate if it becomes vet 1.
7 Jul 2020, 22:12 PM
#109
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1681



Imo ram stays as it is (maybe a delay in activation can work) or is replaced with something like flanking speed. Making ram a vet ability is mind bogginly wrong imo.

Good you got it to vet 1 now you can suicide yourself against tanks wich you will only slow down and do a bit of damage to while others need to finish to finish it off.

You are not only garateed loose 300 mp and 90 fuel you also are garateed to loose a vetted unit. Makes no sense to move a suicide ability to vet 1. It better damn well have a 50% survival rate if it becomes vet 1.


Yes thats exactly the drawback. You want 8seconds stun GUARANTEED IL2 can throw all his 4 bombs on top of that elephant? You must risk losing that vetted T34.

You basically want those tasty 8seconds, get back your t34 alive and get a kill on the enemy heavy tank...what???
7 Jul 2020, 23:51 PM
#110
avatar of Kobal

Posts: 155

Please don't , let's start with miragefla mod with the testing for his limited changes and not add that many changes for no reason.
7 Jul 2020, 23:59 PM
#111
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 707

Why change Rifles medium damage, it actually gives them a place now where they can excel. Finally stopped complete sturm bum rush re eches and the first rifle squad with sturms and winning 80 percent of time, now rifles can actually drop models when in proper range. Even now you have a good chance of rushing a lone rifle squad with sturms and unless rifles drop at least a model while they are running and then get to your green cover you lose. They have always had better medium range dmg but it never worked on rifle because of them almost always losing a model or 2 vs long range volks and grens. Why they did it in the first place.
8 Jul 2020, 00:23 AM
#112
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 794

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2020, 23:59 PMRocket
Why change Rifles medium damage, it actually gives them a place now where they can excel. Finally stopped complete sturm bum rush re eches and the first rifle squad with sturms and winning 80 percent of time, now rifles can actually drop models when in proper range. Even now you have a good chance of rushing a lone rifle squad with sturms and unless rifles drop at least a model while they are running and then get to your green cover you lose. They have always had better medium range dmg but it never worked on rifle because of them almost always losing a model or 2 vs long range volks and grens. Why they did it in the first place.


learn to read

M1 Garand near range from 6 to 5 (was 3 originally)

Its not going to be the same as it was previously. tbh they shouldn't have even be buffed in the first place.
8 Jul 2020, 00:43 AM
#113
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 707

Kinda difficult to tell exactly what range “medium” range is dosent matter anyway you do that then you just bring back sturms rolling usf over at the start most likely. When plenty still capable of doing that anyway just not nearly as easy for them as it use to be. Dosent change fact volks still beat them cover to cover usually with out smoke or some kind of tactic to get rifles in medium close range with out blind sighting them behind houses fences etc which is fine they are suppose to win at long tange. Still no reason why to change it back to a guaranteed sturm win at first engagement. If you didnt think it was wrong that my first rifles are in green cover and sturms just run up into green cover on the other side and win then your “nuts!”
8 Jul 2020, 01:01 AM
#114
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

It's 1 range calm the fuck down till after you try it. 1 range. It's improved by double that compared to the way it was. Holy over reaction
8 Jul 2020, 01:24 AM
#115
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 707

It's 1 range calm the fuck down till after you try it. 1 range. It's improved by double that compared to the way it was. Holy over reaction


Not even an axis player has mentioned it why mess with things that no one has asked for. Then ignore things everyone asked for okw arty flares free map hacks but dont even dress it. Amazing isnt it.
8 Jul 2020, 05:08 AM
#116
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1226



Yes thats exactly the drawback. You want 8seconds stun GUARANTEED IL2 can throw all his 4 bombs on top of that elephant? You must risk losing that vetted T34.

You basically want those tasty 8seconds, get back your t34 alive and get a kill on the enemy heavy tank...what???


No i dont want the ram plus il2 combo to stay so potent.

Its not a risk loosing the t34 vetted or not. its a garatee you will loose it.

Making ram require vet is absolutly not the way to do it. Because if ram requires vet there should be things changed to make up for it being lost 100% of the time.

8 Jul 2020, 07:52 AM
#117
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


I don't really want to create a battle bus that can heal squads on the way to / in between / after engagements. The difference compared to the 251 is that the latter doesn't have fire from hold.



I disagree. In my experience the majority of times a rammed (super)heavy can still move out of the way of the offmap after only getting stunned. It's usually the (heavy) engine damage that makes it too slow to get away in time (after also getting stunned) or that leaves it incredibly vulnerable to a follow up attack.


The battlebus doesn't have the USF firepower (zook nor Thompson/bar). You would have to go for T1 and Penals for semi decent dmg or Guards/Shocks/PPSH.
Compared to other HT, it should be the last one to arrive.

Point is, if you get to T3 you need something which is combat and cost effective to recover map control and manpower deficit.
A 15 muni single heal feels like nothing.


Ram
We are talking about an 8% chance to happen (heavy + inmo) on top of the chance of actually penning. I've said multiple times this small cases should be either removed or at least be dependant on HP on the target.
Ideally it would be based on both HP and what armor type it is hitting (frontal procs main gun and rear engine base) but that's not possible i think.

Going back to the ram + offmap combo, you only have time if you are playing in the biggest maps and you have to call the offmap from the furthest point in the map. That's not the case for the smaller modes.

Even in the bigger modes, if the offmap is called ahead of the ram, you won't have time to dodge.


If the rewards are lowered, so the risk of the ability should go down. Dis-regardless of nerf and buffs, allowing some counterplay should be possible.
For example: i would love if any dmg done while the T34 is ramming would slow down the vehicle.
8 Jul 2020, 08:15 AM
#118
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

USF

Rifles
Dmg change is minuscule so whatever.
In case anyone wonders, i think the AT nade is a net buff overall for the usual tech timings.

Ambulance
Medic changes are good.
Not sure what is better between a simple +20HP buff or this RNG medic drop.

Scott/Howie
Direction of the change is good though i don't think it has enough impact.

Pak Howie discussion and suggestions are plenty (specially rework) and a straight nerf on auto fire is due. Though if nerfs goes by i would rollback the survivability nerfs, as i don't think the barrage change compensates for it.

In the case of Scott, any nerf without huge rework and compensation in the barrage would kill the unit IMO. The unit is not designed, stat wise, to work as a barrage unit and you don't need a mortar HT at that point in the game.
What if you go with the direct fire nerfs and add delayed fuse or white phosporous as a barrage instead of the HE one?

Rear Echelon GL
I don't think it's a matter of "counterplay" at all. It's just that the ability is designed about putting micro stress while been micro free for the one using it.
Just make it so that the upgrade gives RET the ability to throw for free this same GL manually with a X cooldown timer.



Rest of changes are fine.
8 Jul 2020, 09:10 AM
#119
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Excellent changes.

The only thing missing is the UKF special weapons regiment. Miragefla had a buff/bug fix for Hold the Line in his version. This is needed because the ability as it is know is more of a noob trap and will likely just waste 250 munitions for nothing. Also the resupply HT comes way too late at 4 CP and the weapon drop should not require the weapon upgrade at HQ.

Also I would suggest a change to UKF bolster. Make it so you have to pay the normal price for bolster at HQ as it is now. But then make every squad pay 45-60 munitions for the extra model. Make it a weapon upgrade that takes up one slot like the the VSL upgrade for Grenadiers. That makes Bolster cost munitions and prevents UKF players from being able to use muni-based abilities like grenades, off-maps etc so much. It also makes bolstered infantry sections come later. It also prevents 5 man 2x bren squads.

BTW: Both miragefla and you have made these mods and they both are really good, I am confused why the actual balance patches end up being so meh most of the time. Is it just Relic's "scope" or what is the matter?


Don't you realize you're just cementing 5man IS meta and skipping Bren tech even more? This is the same thing people complained about before that encouraged Tommy spam. I only see brens on 4vs4.

Right now for brens and five man tech its 300mp 50f, four squads of double brens including two medkits is 440muni. So instead players skip Bren tech and do literally anything else. Your changes would put that price up to something like 500muni, pretty crazy for 1bren squads that would still get clubbed by sixman fussies or VSL grens.

So what would players do? Likely ignore Bren tech and spam five men rifle sections because side teching for one lmg that's already worse than a single BAR or MG42 would be a bad use of resources. Much easier to spam vanilla 5man sections and mines, then get that Cromwell faster with the fuel and MP savings. (This also partially covers for the fewer snares ukf has)

Basically top players do things for a reason.



8 Jul 2020, 09:31 AM
#120
avatar of Close Support Sapper

Posts: 1191

As i see, event with sander's suggestion to increase the 5 man sections cost up to 300mp along with a survivability neft, pp still asking for further neft, how nonsense. At this point, put the price back to 280mp and set moving acc to 0.4 will be the best thing we can reach without a major rework for bolster mechanic.

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