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Grens changes

29 Jun 2020, 10:38 AM
#21
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

Ty for the clarification on mines. Regarding AOE my point is with a smaller model unit you are more likely to lose it due to clumping or if you take your eye off of them. I don't think it requires adjusting, but in a faction with combined arms that takes a lot of concentration and is unforgiving which can frustrate players.

Re the building cost, I did not know that either but I think the point stands. If you can use those resources on doctrinal infantry instead and get a quicker T1 unit that is something players will often opt for.

I like the combined arms nature of Ost myself as I prefer defensive positioning play and having a wide arrange of tools available from T0-T1. However at the moment brute force doctrinal troops into quick T1 is easier to use imo.
29 Jun 2020, 10:41 AM
#22
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1481

I agree with Katitof on this one. People expect to play OST as you play USF, and expect to play OKW as you play SOV.
OST is a defensive/reactive faction that can hold any point and relies on weapon teams (best weapon teams in game). 4 man Gren can easily stand to USF rifleman when both are in green cover (5 man kills them). Upgrade grens with MG42 and it can stand vs anything in cover, even out of it.
I mean, by the same logics, you can call Sturms OP on most maps. They just run into you and wipe you completely. My rifles often lose vs Sturms when they are in buildings as Sturms just rush to the building and shoot. They once wiped my captain in 3 seconds, coming around the bush.
Grens are not OP nor UP.
29 Jun 2020, 10:41 AM
#23
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

OP: can you just take a bit more time into thinking why the suggestion is bad?

I guess we are going to have 2 more threads.

Volks changes and Rifles changes. Not like they need anything.
29 Jun 2020, 10:56 AM
#24
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Actually you're wrong

You need to build T1 so this is factored into squad core cost, soviets can build cons without a tech structure so they are the cheapest

Might wanna double run those numbers there champ.
29 Jun 2020, 11:33 AM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13262 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 10:38 AMBryan
Ty for the clarification on mines...

Actually not all mines have a cap on killing entities.
29 Jun 2020, 12:52 PM
#26
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833


Might wanna double run those numbers there champ.


Technically I'm correct bud

29 Jun 2020, 12:56 PM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Technically I'm correct bud


Practically, you're as wrong as it can possibly get, because getting 3 cons with AT nades(t1 gets you pfaust, so its only logical to compare similar end utility cost for cons) costs more then getting 3 grens with T1 and you have possibility for mortars and snipers too and still end up with more mp at the end because ost starts with bonus mp.

So in fact, you not only pay less, you get more out of it and you have more "money" to spend to begin with.
29 Jun 2020, 13:19 PM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13262 | Subs: 1

Conscript and Grenadier have the same cost. They both cost 240. Conscripts is T0 units and grenadiers are T1 unit.

Soviet have the option to tech:
molotovs with a cost 80/10
At grenades with a cost 125/10

and after that mobilize reserves with a cost 100/20 (or get it for free with t4).

Grenadier:
require t1 with a cost 80/10
require BP1 with a cost rifle-grenades with 100/40

and they need T4 for reinforcement discount.

No matter how one wants to look at things conscript "spam" is more viable than grenadier "spam".


29 Jun 2020, 13:29 PM
#29
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 13:19 PMVipper
Conscript and Grenadier have the same cost. They both cost 240. Conscripts is T0 units and grenadiers are T1 unit.

Soviet have the option to tech:
molotovs with a cost 80/10
At grenades with a cost 125/10

and after that mobilize reserves with a cost 100/20 (or get it for free with t4).

Grenadier:
require t1 with a cost 80/10
require BP1 with a cost rifle-grenades with 100/40

and they need T4 for reinforcement discount.

No matter how one wants to look at things conscript "spam" is more viable than grenadier "spam".




noone doubts that cons are the allround better unit (7th man is just the cherry on top)
29 Jun 2020, 13:31 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13262 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 13:29 PMBaba


noone doubts that cons are the allround better unit (7th man is just the cherry on top)

Get read to be supersized soon.
29 Jun 2020, 14:12 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 13:19 PMVipper
Conscript and Grenadier have the same cost. They both cost 240. Conscripts is T0 units and grenadiers are T1 unit.

Soviet have the option to tech:
molotovs with a cost 80/10
At grenades with a cost 125/10

and after that mobilize reserves with a cost 100/20 (or get it for free with t4).

Grenadier:
require t1 with a cost 80/10
require BP1 with a cost rifle-grenades with 100/40

and they need T4 for reinforcement discount.

No matter how one wants to look at things conscript "spam" is more viable than grenadier "spam".



BUT BP1 also grants access to pgrens and progresses tech as well as unlocking lmg42s, so it's not a flat cost for the rifle nades and can't easily be used to accurately inflate the cost of grens. At most we can attribute 1/4 the cost of BP1 into nades, so 25mp and 10 fuel, still putting them under for cost compared to cons. However I do not believe that ost teching should be considered into the cost of grens as it will be done and paid regardless if you use 5 gren squads or none, in contrast to conscript upgrades that serve no purpose if you don't build any cons and could be deemed cost ineffecient if you only build 1 or even 2.

I don't think it's fair to include the mobilize reserves unlock cost as it's an opportunity cost that can be mitigated via a full tech, so paying for it is a choice that shouldn't be included in considering their "price"
29 Jun 2020, 14:36 PM
#32
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2773

Yeah Yeah, let's make Ostheer unplayable again.
Make USA GREAT again.
29 Jun 2020, 14:39 PM
#33
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2773

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 12:56 PMKatitof

Practically, you're as wrong as it can possibly get, because getting 3 cons with AT nades(t1 gets you pfaust, so its only logical to compare similar end utility cost for cons) costs more then getting 3 grens with T1 and you have possibility for mortars and snipers too and still end up with more mp at the end because ost starts with bonus mp.

So in fact, you not only pay less, you get more out of it and you have more "money" to spend to begin with.


You are always right.
Even you don't even play the goddamn game.
29 Jun 2020, 14:54 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13262 | Subs: 1


BUT BP1 also grants access to pgrens and progresses tech as well as unlocking lmg42s, so it's not a flat cost for the rifle nades and can't easily be used to accurately inflate the cost of grens. At most we can attribute 1/4 the cost of BP1 into nades, so 25mp and 10 fuel, still putting them under for cost compared to cons. However I do not believe that ost teching should be considered into the cost of grens as it will be done and paid regardless if you use 5 gren squads or none, in contrast to conscript upgrades that serve no purpose if you don't build any cons and could be deemed cost ineffecient if you only build 1 or even 2.

I don't think it's fair to include the mobilize reserves unlock cost as it's an opportunity cost that can be mitigated via a full tech, so paying for it is a choice that shouldn't be included in considering their "price"

I have simply provided stats and made the observation that conscript "spam" is more viable than gren "spam".

Feel free to include what ever cost you like but that will not make grenadiers cheaper then conscripts or more viable to spam.
29 Jun 2020, 16:49 PM
#35
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

As I have say before: There's a reason Ostheer players choose between 5 man grenadier OR ostruppen => there's a problem with 4 man Grenadier squad.


Suggestion: Just like Assault Grenadier, 5 man non-doctrine should be unlock after tier 2 tech.

- If Grenadier have previously upgrade with LMG42 / G43 => non upgradeable ( just like 7th man cons ).
- Capture point faster.
- 5 Vanilla kar98k rifle.
- Block all weapon slot. ( If previously have pick up a weapon => Not upgradeable )

The point of this upgrade: Easier for Grenadier to soak up damage, recrew weapons and still doesn't increase their firepower compare to LMG42 upgrade.

Go watch all casting game by Propagandacasat or tightrope, most Ostheer going German infantry doctrine OR ostruppen.
29 Jun 2020, 18:44 PM
#36
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 262

Imo grens are only an issue in 1v1. In 2v2 and going. Sniper, gren, mg starts with pgrens are way more viable anyway. A lot of people dont seem to bother the combined arms aspect.
29 Jun 2020, 19:02 PM
#37
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
What about my suggestion: Remove the RA bonuses associated with the 5man upgrade. All grens should instead receive a 20% DPS increase vs suppressed and pinned units. This will allow better players to use the MG42 more fluidly as they can use the grens to keep the bait squad at bay and the MG can turn to face any flankers.

This will force the allies to retreat their baiting squads earlier, alleviating the MG from worrying about several targets.
29 Jun 2020, 19:06 PM
#38
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 13:19 PMVipper
Conscript and Grenadier have the same cost. They both cost 240. Conscripts is T0 units and grenadiers are T1 unit.

Soviet have the option to tech:
molotovs with a cost 80/10
At grenades with a cost 125/10

and after that mobilize reserves with a cost 100/20 (or get it for free with t4).

Grenadier:
require t1 with a cost 80/10
require BP1 with a cost rifle-grenades with 100/40

and they need T4 for reinforcement discount.

No matter how one wants to look at things conscript "spam" is more viable than grenadier "spam".




Two important points that could be added:

- cons are much better at recrewing stuff due to higher model count and stock (and free) merge vs. four men grens and pios who very often have to die to do that (often a gamechanger).
- can can build sandbags and have hoorah (both stock and don't require tech)
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