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An Old Schooler's Rant and Observations

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29 Jun 2020, 12:14 PM
#101
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

I'm not sure why you guys are suggesting that just because it's a meme strat means it can't be effective. I've seen Hans use Ost Doc a lot, for instance.
29 Jun 2020, 12:15 PM
#102
avatar of Konsumpartisane

Posts: 14


Of course it's a meme strat; it always has been. It's a meme unit.

They're shit infantry you spam and are only effective in cover. They didn't even used to be able to fire on the move.

Do you remember the original design for that commander? Spam Osttruppen and railway arty with munitions conversion. Now they have weapon drops which you crew with your spam infantry.


So top players like to meme instead of using the most viable strat in a tournament? DevM/Luvnest = meme players confirmed?

What has the original design of Osttruppen to do with the current design? Nothing

I have the feeling that you dont understand how to use Osttruppen:
1. They are cheap
2. They trade well
-> More manpower for Ostheer
3. They have snare

4. You can skip T1 and rush T2 for 222

They are the best and the worst inf at the same time: You win the manpower battle if you stick to cover and you lose when you use them like Ass grens.
29 Jun 2020, 12:19 PM
#103
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 314


What has the original design of Osttruppen to do with the current design? Nothing


Exactly, just like the original design of the factions and >a lot< of units have nothing to do with what the game has become through all these community balance patches.
29 Jun 2020, 16:10 PM
#105
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7356 | Subs: 1


Of course it's a meme strat; it always has been. It's a meme unit.

They're shit infantry you spam and are only effective in cover. They didn't even used to be able to fire on the move.

Do you remember the original design for that commander? Spam Osttruppen and railway arty with munitions conversion. Now they have weapon drops which you crew with your spam infantry.


See, this is why i can't take seriously any of the people mentioning things from the past, when they can't even fact check what they say and start to lie or forget how things were back then.


1- Original (first week) Osstruppen were on the weaker side on 1v1 (due to a bug having half the damage) but OP for teamgames cause they were released in conjunction with Assault Grenadiers. AssG were obscene and there only weakness was Clowncar strats which were countered by 200mp (?) Osstruppen.

2- They were always able to fire on the move. (End of Sept 2013 to March 2014) They were just bad, extremely bad. (yes the guide is wrong)

3- "Shit" infantry which was cheaper than conscripts and stronger in cover. Funnily enough, there weakness was been out of cover and cappign slower.

4- No one use munition conversion for Railway arty. They used it for Grenadier LMG spam (this later transition with CAS commander).

5- While the LMG upgrade is something new, reminder that Relic released Mobile defense with double Osstrupen RNG LMG.

29 Jun 2020, 16:16 PM
#106
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

I wasn't lying to anyone. I remember how the doctrine worked as I used to use it a lot; in fact, I co-wrote a guide here on how to use it. It may still be around somewhere.

If they did indeed not fire on the move then that's an honest mistake on my part. I thought they didn't used to be able to.

Anyhow, I'll stop riling people up by posting 'wrong' opinions here and keep to the modding forum. I don't play live anymore because I think it's shit now, but obviously that's not the same as me having a sloppy memory. ;)

Sorry for any confusion - no harm meant.
29 Jun 2020, 17:04 PM
#107
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1

According to patch notes James Hale is correct about not being able to fire on the move.

Osttruppen

Cost from 120 MP to 200 MP
Population from 3 to 5
Hit points from 48 to 80
Can now shoot on the move
Bonus accuracy in cover from 2 to 1.75
29 Jun 2020, 17:07 PM
#108
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7356 | Subs: 1

I wasn't lying to anyone. I remember how the doctrine worked as I used to use it a lot; in fact, I co-wrote a guide here on how to use it. It may still be around somewhere.

If they did indeed not fire on the move then that's an honest mistake on my part. I thought they didn't used to be able to.

Anyhow, I'll stop riling people up by posting 'wrong' opinions here and keep to the modding forum. I don't play live anymore because I think it's shit now, but obviously that's not the same as me having a sloppy memory. ;)

Sorry for any confusion - no harm meant.


It's not about having a wrong or correct opinion, nor if it's bad or good at all. Those are subjective. Some people prefer one thing to another.

The problem is lying and been misleading as to what was truth or by pointing out things as egregious now, when in fact it was the same back then.

For example: i can understand the PoV of @Skemshead if it's pointed towards the big difference between OH and USF but then you have a pearl like this:

"because every faction just builds a defensive wall of mgs and double at guns and the game just degenerates into each side probing until the other player gets caught out of position or rng determines a wipe. Then indirect fire just shits all over everything and often makes unit positioning a pointless exercise because often the first strike wipes half the squad and half its health meaning auto retreat."


-Soviets played like that when going maxim spam or stalling for no tech call ins.
-OKW played like that, more so in 2v2+ than 1v1, with fortifications meta. Funny that people complain about simcity and they didn't cry about OKW camping behind Battle HQ with double ISG, stalling with pak43 and KT.
-UKF is basically OH 2.0

And in the department of indirect fire, there has never been a time on which it was as weak as it is now.

-ALL units got improved formations.
-Grens got dmg modifiers to counter it with vet.
-ALL mortars got nerfed.
-Precision strike is a story of the past
-All Howitzers got nerfed
-All rocket artillery got nerfed


It's perfect that some people prefer the game as it was back then (whatever year that is) but don't be a hypocrite or a liar when mentioning what was meta/strong or problems we had back then.



29 Jun 2020, 17:10 PM
#109
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7356 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 17:04 PMVipper
According to patch notes James Hale is correct about not being able to fire on the move.

Osttruppen

Cost from 120 MP to 200 MP
Population from 3 to 5
Hit points from 48 to 80
Can now shoot on the move
Bonus accuracy in cover from 2 to 1.75


I stand corrected.
29 Jun 2020, 17:14 PM
#110
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1



I stand corrected.

Well it is not that easy to remember how things were six year ago...especially after so many patches in between.
29 Jun 2020, 17:15 PM
#111
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7356 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 17:14 PMVipper

Well it is not that easy to remember how where thing six year ago...especially after so many patches in between.


I blame Tiger Ace/Windustry basically been the whole meta back then.
29 Jun 2020, 17:33 PM
#112
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

Well, it's always nice to be disproven as a liar.

Thanks, Vipper.
29 Jun 2020, 17:36 PM
#113
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1



I blame Tiger Ace/Windustry basically been the whole meta back then.

:)
ugly times.

Funny how some people defended those doctrines at the time.


Well, it's always nice to be disproven as a liar.

Thanks, Vipper.


You are welcomed.
29 Jun 2020, 18:15 PM
#114
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7356 | Subs: 1

Once upon a time (like 2 or 3 years ago) there was a plan on releasing an article mentioning the "history" of CoH2 meta/gameplay state. It never lift off because it was a lot to digest, edit and work for.

Since file is still public, i just took a look at it and oh boy there were several things i didn't remember from back then.


Give me a year and a semester and i can point out what BS gameplay we had back then.

It would be a fun mod been able to play a certain meta or even better, playing against different factions with different metas.

Pick your poison:

OH: Mech assault infinite resources opel blitz with pin strafe, MG42 with suppression bulletins, 7 min KV8 (FHT with vet2), week release Prostruppen and Assault Grens, 100 range Ele with real nuke Stuka dive bomb, Tiger Ace, March deployment Pio spam and passive suppression Grens, Joint Operations meta (no cd LeFH), PG and Panther spam meta.

SU: PPSH HTD with 5 muni Cons, TRU maxim spam, double snipers with sprints, clowncar sniper, super reverse speed Su85, all indirect units with Precision strike, B4 with precision strike meta, T70 with crush (shivers), original cheap Shocks and Guards (so fun not picking a commander with smoke), the solution to all Soviets problems was praying and ram. Windustry. PARTYsans meta. ISU 100 range.
"NO, you can't just spam vehicles with no tech!". Guard Motor: "T34-85s goes brrr brrr".
Also, 120 dmg 120mm mortar. With PS.

USF: who cares i don't have a real late game tank when i can just spam P47s. What's popcap? I can just decrew all my Priest and do fine or spam M10 and keep them at base.
Rifles > M20 > Sherman. Repeat for every game.
USF in 1v1 = ez mode
USF in 4v4 = 404 faction not found.
Remember when Captain tier was utter trash, same with Stuart? Anyway, double 1919 with defensive stance. Rifle company with vetted Rifles with flamer. OG Volley fire. OG ZOOK volley fire.

OKW: Kubel with suppression, followed by SwS pushing n crushing units (or just buildings). Volks blobs and OG Chad Obers. Insta win against USF by saving 500 muni or playing against them in Semoisky (SwS + ghost barb wire pinned in the base). Fortifications and KT meta. Phaseshifting JPIV.
80/90% WR team game Axis. Brought to you by ez pz OKW squeeze.
Great, we just "nerfed" Ele and ISU so we can have a more balanced game. Knock knock, who's there? JT.
29 Jun 2020, 18:33 PM
#115
avatar of ichoosethesteak

Posts: 22

This is why I got out of running E-Sports, disrespectful ungrateful simplistic people expecting everything for nothing while being completely clueless about what it takes to make something like this possible.

As an older bloke who absolutely loved COH1 from the 1.1 patch, it's incredible just how short people's memories are.

The truth is, I've never seen a company fuck up a game so badly compared with Relic. 1.1 to 1.4 was great fun and then they released Opposing Fronts. Game was literally unplayable for months because brits were so stupid and broken.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to not remember just how broken brits still are in COH1. Light tanks hull mg's never needing to reload, sniper spam. 1.71 still had so much broken shit in it. Sure, the WM vs US matchup was and still is fun (if you don't sniper spam), rose tinted glasses ffs.

Then Relic brought out Company of Heroes online, amazingly fun concept albeit broken as fuck with cartoony abilities. The morons in charge decided to make it free to play without any need to ever buy currency because it was so easy to get, always doomed to fail. That game could have been amazing but they were so bad at developing a free to play game, it died along with the head programmer.

Finally, COH2 came out. Once again, I bought it but this time, waited for half price because damned if I was going to give any more money to Relic than I had too. I didn't like the new interface, all the abilities and new setup didn't gell and I played it sporadically for 3 months before putting it down. I still played COH 1 occasionally as I still preferred it. I had pretty much forgotten about COH2 till I jumped into a Tightrope COH2 twitch stream to see how it was and thought, I'll reinstall and see how it is going about 4-6 months ago. He had heaps of great videos that fed my mathematical desires and I got stuck into learning about the game again something I enjoyed very much.

Let me just say, it was night and day, COH2 is a absolute gem of a game now. Honestly, I was in shock, people who get E-Sports seem to be making decisions that stop making cartoony silly abilities so useful and make strats that need multiple units and get the balance so well. I started watching events and streams because the game flowed so well now, its simply jaw dropping to see how far it came. To make things worse, I went back and played a COH1 game and can't believe I still thought it was a good game compared. COH2 isn't just a little better, it's orders of magnitude better in every way.

The difference between patches now from the community compared with Relic is massive, honestly, the fact that Relic aren't basically helping anymore and have given it people whose only interests in making a game more E-Sports focused is fantastic. The game balance has never been as good as it is now, sure, some tactics are a little too powerful but the gentle approach they seem to have is simply far more successful at creating a better balance.

Have a good look at yourself and stop being a cunt to the guys who have provided so much fun to hundreds of thousands of people all around the world for free.
29 Jun 2020, 19:32 PM
#116
avatar of UberHanz
Donator 11

Posts: 204 | Subs: 1

This is why I got out of running E-Sports, disrespectful ungrateful simplistic people expecting everything for nothing while being completely clueless about what it takes to make something like this possible.

As an older bloke who absolutely loved COH1 from the 1.1 patch, it's incredible just how short people's memories are.

The truth is, I've never seen a company fuck up a game so badly compared with Relic. 1.1 to 1.4 was great fun and then they released Opposing Fronts. Game was literally unplayable for months because brits were so stupid and broken.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to not remember just how broken brits still are in COH1. Light tanks hull mg's never needing to reload, sniper spam. 1.71 still had so much broken shit in it. Sure, the WM vs US matchup was and still is fun (if you don't sniper spam), rose tinted glasses ffs.

Then Relic brought out Company of Heroes online, amazingly fun concept albeit broken as fuck with cartoony abilities. The morons in charge decided to make it free to play without any need to ever buy currency because it was so easy to get, always doomed to fail. That game could have been amazing but they were so bad at developing a free to play game, it died along with the head programmer.

Finally, COH2 came out. Once again, I bought it but this time, waited for half price because damned if I was going to give any more money to Relic than I had too. I didn't like the new interface, all the abilities and new setup didn't gell and I played it sporadically for 3 months before putting it down. I still played COH 1 occasionally as I still preferred it. I had pretty much forgotten about COH2 till I jumped into a Tightrope COH2 twitch stream to see how it was and thought, I'll reinstall and see how it is going about 4-6 months ago. He had heaps of great videos that fed my mathematical desires and I got stuck into learning about the game again something I enjoyed very much.

Let me just say, it was night and day, COH2 is a absolute gem of a game now. Honestly, I was in shock, people who get E-Sports seem to be making decisions that stop making cartoony silly abilities so useful and make strats that need multiple units and get the balance so well. I started watching events and streams because the game flowed so well now, its simply jaw dropping to see how far it came. To make things worse, I went back and played a COH1 game and can't believe I still thought it was a good game compared. COH2 isn't just a little better, it's orders of magnitude better in every way.

The difference between patches now from the community compared with Relic is massive, honestly, the fact that Relic aren't basically helping anymore and have given it people whose only interests in making a game more E-Sports focused is fantastic. The game balance has never been as good as it is now, sure, some tactics are a little too powerful but the gentle approach they seem to have is simply far more successful at creating a better balance.

Have a good look at yourself and stop being a cunt to the guys who have provided so much fun to hundreds of thousands of people all around the world for free.


<444>3
30 Jun 2020, 00:24 AM
#117
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 364

Well, it's always nice to be disproven as a liar.

Thanks, Vipper.


Admittedly there's a lot of fake shit being thrown around from some parties, but Vipper is pretty good at getting the facts straight.
30 Jun 2020, 03:16 AM
#118
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Once upon a time (like 2 or 3 years ago) there was a plan on releasing an article mentioning the "history" of CoH2 meta/gameplay state. It never lift off because it was a lot to digest, edit and work for.

Since file is still public, i just took a look at it and oh boy there were several things i didn't remember from back then.


Give me a year and a semester and i can point out what BS gameplay we had back then.

It would be a fun mod been able to play a certain meta or even better, playing against different factions with different metas.

Pick your poison:

OH: Mech assault infinite resources opel blitz with pin strafe, MG42 with suppression bulletins, 7 min KV8 (FHT with vet2), week release Prostruppen and Assault Grens, 100 range Ele with real nuke Stuka dive bomb, Tiger Ace, March deployment Pio spam and passive suppression Grens, Joint Operations meta (no cd LeFH), PG and Panther spam meta.

SU: PPSH HTD with 5 muni Cons, TRU maxim spam, double snipers with sprints, clowncar sniper, super reverse speed Su85, all indirect units with Precision strike, B4 with precision strike meta, T70 with crush (shivers), original cheap Shocks and Guards (so fun not picking a commander with smoke), the solution to all Soviets problems was praying and ram. Windustry. PARTYsans meta. ISU 100 range.
"NO, you can't just spam vehicles with no tech!". Guard Motor: "T34-85s goes brrr brrr".
Also, 120 dmg 120mm mortar. With PS.

USF: who cares i don't have a real late game tank when i can just spam P47s. What's popcap? I can just decrew all my Priest and do fine or spam M10 and keep them at base.
Rifles > M20 > Sherman. Repeat for every game.
USF in 1v1 = ez mode
USF in 4v4 = 404 faction not found.
Remember when Captain tier was utter trash, same with Stuart? Anyway, double 1919 with defensive stance. Rifle company with vetted Rifles with flamer. OG Volley fire. OG ZOOK volley fire.

OKW: Kubel with suppression, followed by SwS pushing n crushing units (or just buildings). Volks blobs and OG Chad Obers. Insta win against USF by saving 500 muni or playing against them in Semoisky (SwS + ghost barb wire pinned in the base). Fortifications and KT meta. Phaseshifting JPIV.
80/90% WR team game Axis. Brought to you by ez pz OKW squeeze.
Great, we just "nerfed" Ele and ISU so we can have a more balanced game. Knock knock, who's there? JT.


I don't know about anyone else but looking back this all seemed pretty fun

I still remember the sheer terror of trying to get double Pak and tellers down before the double T34s arrived. COH has lost a bit of that even though it's more balanced than its ever been.
30 Jun 2020, 06:34 AM
#119
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 661

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jun 2020, 17:39 PMEuan


This thread is not about the T-70 vs. the Ostwind... honestly I tried to choose my words carefully because I knew someone would come out either saying "lulz shut up T70 is way better than Ostwind" or "lulz shut up Ostwind is way better than T70".

I'm only trying to make an example with T-70, a unit that is very strong and good value, but is nonetheless not seen as a "crutch" or "gimmick", because it is seen as an integral part of a balanced faction.


I thought you made a great point and chose your words very well!

Some people like to get angry and use other posts to start unproductive arguements.
Just remember most people wont reply saying "great post!", even when they think that you made a good point.
(do your reply "great post" when you see a good argument?) besides, doing this would clutter the forrum.

-> hint hint... a "good point" button would be apreciated!:D no like/dislike tho please as this leads to polarization and angery arguements.
30 Jun 2020, 07:40 AM
#120
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8819 | Subs: 1

Once upon a time (like 2 or 3 years ago) there was a plan on releasing an article mentioning the "history" of CoH2 meta/gameplay state. It never lift off because it was a lot to digest, edit and work for.
....

In my opinion such a project would be far more interesting if it brought an issue and then focused on solution and its side effects. That would actually be very helpful in choosing good solution with less side affects.
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