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An Old Schooler's Rant and Observations

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18 Jun 2020, 10:33 AM
#21
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 317

I launched the game for the first time in 2-3 years a few days ago. Played two AI matches, laughed at the changes and decided not to play it again.

From my perspective, as someone who hasn't followed the game, the community, the devs in years, it really does look like people who have very little understanding of what each faction and unit was initially designed to be tinkered around with the game. It might not feel like it when you follow the process but what happened in the past ~2 years wasnt just a series of patches. It was a redesign of the game. Call me oldschool but Id rather have game developers, who had a clear vision for the product they worked on, be in charge of or at least examine updates to that vision. And I have a strong suspicion that those were barely involved in these latest patches.

The abundance of bugs and oversights only completes the picture. This was a real "Wtf happened?" moment for me and Im sure that it will be for many players who decide to return to the game(and then ultimately won't due to its state).
18 Jun 2020, 10:45 AM
#22
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2020, 09:43 AMKatitof
Asymmetrical balance works if the tools allow do do the same things, but in different way.


For sure, I'm not denying asymmetrical balance can't work. I'm saying absolute asymmetrical balance (which seems to be what the OP is asking for) does not work. All factions should've had access to the same basic tools, just in different ways (like grenade launchers instead of flamethrowers for anti-garrison or whatever) in addition to slightly varying playstyles (like factions focussing more on infantry, or mechanized, or armor or having significantly different tech trees). But absolute asymmetry like OKW's original design concept, where they were completely overpowered in some situations and didn't stand a chance in other situations, that's next to impossible to balance properly. Not within the context of CoH2's overarching core mechanics.

18 Jun 2020, 10:48 AM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



For sure, I'm not denying asymmetrical balance can't work. I'm saying absolute asymmetrical balance (which seems to be what the OP is asking for) does not work.

That I do agree with completely.

All factions should've had access to the same basic tools, just in different ways (like grenade launchers instead of flamethrowers for anti-garrison) in addition to slightly varying playstyles (like focussing more on infantry, or mechanized, or armor). But absolute asymmetry like OKW's original design concept, where they were completely overpowered in some situations and didn't stand a chance in other situations, that's next to impossible to balance properly. Not within the context of CoH2's overarching core mechanics.

And that's pretty much what I've said already.

18 Jun 2020, 17:07 PM
#24
avatar of UberHanz
Donator 11

Posts: 208 | Subs: 1

Not sure if original poster is truely regretting the development of the game or mourning aging in general. No offense my friend :)

COH in general was and is never a high APM game. Just compare that to starcraft. From mere playability, the series is currently at its best in my opinion.


jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2020, 09:43 AMKatitof

People for whatever reason can't stop looking at coh1 through pink glasses of nostalgia, it was a complete and utter balance mess at all points in time.


Well said. Roos spam, Double Staghounds, PG Spam, Sniper Meta, Wehrmacht vetting, Zombie Bunkers...... if you look were we are now, cant see how not to be truely grateful for a great decently balanced RTS.
18 Jun 2020, 18:03 PM
#25
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1051

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2020, 09:43 AMKatitof

People for whatever reason can't stop looking at coh1 through pink glasses of nostalgia, it was a complete and utter balance mess at all points in time.


It happens to all of us.

I bought the recently released C&C remake as it was the favourite game of my childhood.

Played a skirmish and personally.....it feels pretty shit. I can understand how i would have liked it back in its day but it just felt so clunky and irritating.

18 Jun 2020, 20:04 PM
#26
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 875

Not sure if original poster is truly regretting the development of the game or mourning aging in general. No offense my friend :)

COH in general was and is never a high APM game. Just compare that to starcraft. From mere playability, the series is currently at its best in my opinion.
/quote]


Well, I think it's both...I don't keep up with the forums much. Is there agreement that lethality is higher, wipes happen more, and retreat wipes are much worse than three years ago? I might be wrong about the patch that really did me in, feel like it was 2016 though. If I remember correctly a lot of people complained about cons and volks being able to trade for 3-4 minutes at a time if in cover, so they started jiggling back then. If two squads are trading in green cover, it's still like at release and you can literally go to the bathroom and come back and have lost only a model.

The retreat wipes are what really bother me the most honestly, it's just stupid, stupid brutal gameplay, falls into that "quality of life" category for me, since infantry are going to use roads on retreat per the pathfinding but that makes them much more likely to get killed on retreat. I just don't think they struck the right balance here...It's just too easy to get those wipes, it seems like any model under 75% health can be killed pretty easily by 2 or more chasing squads (note talking model not unit). I don't know what tests would show, but it just doesn't feel right to me at all. Again this is part of what has pushed the game into rewarding caution too much (and the dominance of indirect fire), because the REALLY good players know they can't always choose their retreat path, so they play even more cautiously and take even fewer chances to avoid the dreaded retreat wipe...If there's any chance of getting flanked you just can't engage for more than an instant because you will get wiped on retreat because even fairly high health doesn't protect your squad, so just don't engage, right?

Anyhoo.


I haven't even gotten started on snares and how lame tanks are now, but I'll say my design challenge for Relic for COH3 would be to re-design the game without snares, and see how to balance it. Then you could add some snares back in in unique ways. The only reason I even get tanks is because you need something to chase down the opponent's snared and wounded tank, otherwise you're much better off getting some good anti-infantry units (shocks, Obers, etc or indirect fire.) because their DPS is more reliable than tanks (because they rate of fire is high, the RNG matters less and you get the expected result, but RNG on tanks mean you may miss 3 shots in a row and have no other chance to get any damage in). Plus they are less likely to get wiped from an ambush or the at-gun/snare/chase combo. Tigers and T34-85s are kind of the exception, but T34-85s are too expensive to do anything daring with either until you have 3 or 4 of them.




18 Jun 2020, 20:47 PM
#27
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I'll address different points separately.

I think you are confused with time frame and remember everything in tainted rose glasses. Lethality was higher back then (double weapons, 1919s, Obers, mortars, artillery, etc.)

There were 2 time frames on which small arm fire lethality was low. 2013 game release on which units takes eons to die and maxim/MG42 was a thing (which led to small arm fire rework and 1.25 RA weapon crews) and beginning of 2016 when ALL OFFENSIVE VETERANCY ON INFANTRY didn't work at all.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/49473/gamebreaking-veterancy-bug

Plenty of yellow cover giving 0.50 RA + natural RA gained through vet offsets any of the weapon upgrades on units, which is the reason it was not discovered faster. Once you fixed that shit, suddenly ALL infantry units gain access to around +40% improvement on the offensive department.

_____________________

Micro/APM. I don't think that the game has gone up in any case and it's not even close to ALL other RTS out there.
What is has change is that BLOBBING and relying on FOTM META OP units is slightly harder. There's nothing wrong with blobbing or playing meta, it's the dunning Krugger effect that it's an issue.

_____________________


People taking breaks and expectations.

If you were to not do exercise for 2 years and then decided to run a short marathon in a glimpse without preparation at all, i will feel sorry for your lungs and heart.
Just because you were USED to do something in the past, doesn't mean it will hold it's ground in the present. If you keep getting old and launch the game when you are already stressed out from work having your brain operating at 50%, don't blame the game. You are just on the other side of the coin when back then you were defeating this kind of people as well.

All if not most PvP games evolve and change with time. If you are not aware of the meta/change you will struggle.

If your fun comes ONLY from seeing the victory screen, then i feel sorry for you. I think the game does a very bad job with ELO/MMR decay so it will take some time before those numbers goes down till you face people at a similar skill bracket.
18 Jun 2020, 21:08 PM
#28
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2



A pretty respectfully worded post overall. As a member of the balance team and a tournament player, I'd like to clear some things up though.

Call in vs. constructed inconsistency is annoying, but I think the more important question on that front is if the implementation in each case makes for better gameplay. Why keep a unit as a called in unit if this very aspect causes problems (balance or otherwise). Sometimes switching a unit from a callin to being constructed fixes real issues in the game. That said, I am personally of the opinion that units should default towards being constructed instead of called in. On another point, frankly, what people wanted from this game or what people decided about this game in alpha is completely irrelevant. Everything was different back then, and those opinions were held based on factions, units, and gameplay systems that were entirely different. If anything, game design decisions/perspectives held early on in the games life cycle didnt seem to make for a game that was fun to play or balanced.

As for polish and bugs, thats mostly just out of most of our hands. Mods are built by miragefla, then when they go for live implementation, theyre rebuilt by andy on the relic end. No one else really has direct control over the implementation and polish of these changes.
18 Jun 2020, 22:07 PM
#29
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

Hi folks,

With Covid-19 in swing I started playing again after a decent few years out of the loop. Game is changed but I still enjoy it for the most part bar that it still has a memory leak and the odd bug splat. Still not a massive fan of the USF, OKW or Brits designs as I think they were inherently flawed from the get go.

Soviets and Ost feel like nice rounded factions and the map pool for 1v1 has improved.

I don’t expect to be thrashing people anymore as my game time is limited as I’m no longer a student but I do find with correct positioning and some tactical sense you can get around having an average micro ability. The top players tend to play a ton of hours so I don’t expect to be reaching that level.

In any case relic won’t be doing any major changes at this point. DOW2 is my favourite RTS but for games still with life, COH2 is good fun (most of the time).
18 Jun 2020, 22:08 PM
#30
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2020, 22:07 PMBryan
Hi folks,

With Covid-19 in swing I started playing again after a decent few years out of the loop. Game is changed but I still enjoy it for the most part bar that it still has a memory leak and the odd bug splat. Still not a massive fan of the USF, OKW or Brits designs as I think they were inherently flawed from the get go.

Soviets and Ost feel like nice rounded factions and the map pool for 1v1 has improved.

I don’t expect to be thrashing people anymore as my game time is limited as I’m no longer a student but I do find with correct positioning and some tactical sense you can get around having an average micro ability. The top players tend to play a ton of hours so I don’t expect to be reaching that level.

In any case relic won’t be doing any major changes at this point. DOW2 is my favourite RTS but for games still with life, COH2 is good fun (most of the time).


Bryan!

Truly, a blast from the past sir.
18 Jun 2020, 22:13 PM
#31
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412



Bryan!

Truly, a blast from the past sir.


I’d like to say like a fine beverage I age well, but this blast from the past is more jaded and..oh wait that never changed. Hello to you too and any other old deck hands floating around.
18 Jun 2020, 22:25 PM
#32
avatar of thomasagray

Posts: 135

Permanently Banned
Axis OP?


No. OKW under a skilled player OP.
18 Jun 2020, 23:01 PM
#33
avatar of UberHanz
Donator 11

Posts: 208 | Subs: 1



Well, I think it's both...I don't keep up with the forums much. Is there agreement that lethality is higher, wipes happen more, and retreat wipes are much worse than three years ago? I might be wrong about the patch that really did me in, feel like it was 2016 though. If I remember correctly a lot of people complained about cons and volks being able to trade for 3-4 minutes at a time if in cover, so they started jiggling back then. If two squads are trading in green cover, it's still like at release and you can literally go to the bathroom and come back and have lost only a model.

The retreat wipes are what really bother me the most honestly, it's just stupid, stupid brutal gameplay, falls into that "quality of life" category for me, since infantry are going to use roads on retreat per the pathfinding but that makes them much more likely to get killed on retreat. I just don't think they struck the right balance here...It's just too easy to get those wipes, it seems like any model under 75% health can be killed pretty easily by 2 or more chasing squads (note talking model not unit). I don't know what tests would show, but it just doesn't feel right to me at all. Again this is part of what has pushed the game into rewarding caution too much (and the dominance of indirect fire), because the REALLY good players know they can't always choose their retreat path, so they play even more cautiously and take even fewer chances to avoid the dreaded retreat wipe...If there's any chance of getting flanked you just can't engage for more than an instant because you will get wiped on retreat because even fairly high health doesn't protect your squad, so just don't engage, right?

Anyhoo.


I haven't even gotten started on snares and how lame tanks are now, but I'll say my design challenge for Relic for COH3 would be to re-design the game without snares, and see how to balance it. Then you could add some snares back in in unique ways. The only reason I even get tanks is because you need something to chase down the opponent's snared and wounded tank, otherwise you're much better off getting some good anti-infantry units (shocks, Obers, etc or indirect fire.) because their DPS is more reliable than tanks (because they rate of fire is high, the RNG matters less and you get the expected result, but RNG on tanks mean you may miss 3 shots in a row and have no other chance to get any damage in). Plus they are less likely to get wiped from an ambush or the at-gun/snare/chase combo. Tigers and T34-85s are kind of the exception, but T34-85s are too expensive to do anything daring with either until you have 3 or 4 of them.


Retreat wipes have been a thing since vCoh day1. Cant see a real difference, besides ppl simply got better at it with time.

Looking at tournaments and my own games cant say it has become a more defensive game. To the contrary, sim city barely works. I see many smoke plays and lots of offensive actions. Theres nothing like double brits arty & emplacements like in Coh1.

And what you say about the value of tanks is just miles away from the current meta. Tanks are extremely versatile from the glasscannon Jackson/Firefly game, aggressive panther flanks or beast KT for VP lockdown. Besides the E8, i find almost any tank in the game somehow usefull.

I am sry mate, but content wise I basically disagree with everything you say. If you still like the game, I recommend to get some mates and throw in some 3s or 4s. Best way to get back in.

19 Jun 2020, 03:11 AM
#34
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2773

A few things I like in these new patches, are early infantry lethality FINALLY, matching COH1 standard. Before it was like childen shooting airgun at each other, and wiring, finally not taking like ages.
And Ostheer T4 finally viable.

Things I really, really hate,

- Strategic point giving both muni&fuel, when you watch across the replay, there is always both players having same or similar income, making the game so stale. In COH1 if you got cutoff and unable to get your fuel back, that's gameover.

- Some MG are insane (MG42 vet 1, .50cal), some are borderline useless (MG34), are you kidding me?

- Artillery still wiping full health, full vetted squad left and right with a single click.

- Garrisonable building having too little HP

- Snare cannot be kited, unlike COH1

- Plant S mine for retreat wipe is plainly, stupid.
19 Jun 2020, 04:08 AM
#35
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

Id like fully ai controlled elements to be removed for good
is it going to happen? no
19 Jun 2020, 04:13 AM
#36
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1759 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2020, 22:07 PMBryan
... and the map pool for 1v1 has improved.

Oh shit. [Grabs popcorn]
19 Jun 2020, 05:18 AM
#37
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2773

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2020, 04:13 AMRosbone

Oh shit. [Grabs popcorn]


No.
19 Jun 2020, 05:43 AM
#38
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2020, 04:13 AMRosbone

Oh shit. [Grabs popcorn]


COH2 1v1 map pool has had some real unfortunate inclusions in its time like Stalingrad, road to Kharkov and Minsk pocket.

I find using vetos I am getting more games now on the likes of crossroads (both versions), faymonville and Ferma which I all enjoy.
19 Jun 2020, 06:05 AM
#39
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 378

As a (once) loyal player of CoH since 2009, CoH1 reigns supreme over CoH2.
- No mod restriction and great mod support. Now tell me how to import a model with working animation to CoH2. Also ToV Direct Fire is awesome.
- Thrilling campaign. If any new player judges a game, they would judge campaign first and foremost. Just compare heroic Able company to grumpy Soviet journalist. I have completed CoH1 campaigns for at least ten times now but I only touched CoH2 campaign and ToW once. AA is good enough but behind money grab, and worst game support. Just take a look at description of Major in AA and you understand what I mean.
- CoH1 has way better tutorial. I try to introduce my friend to CoH2, and he couldn't even know how to upgrade to next tier. He gives up the game after that.

The above are the biggest reasons why people will remember CoH, not its sequel.
19 Jun 2020, 07:46 AM
#40
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

stating opinions as facts, backing them up with anecdotes.
lovely way to make a point
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