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Sandbags

30 May 2020, 23:33 PM
#1
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

Sandbags are a pain in the arse to assault against, every faction has this issue and the fact they can be built anywhere often leads to frustrating engagements.

Make then unable to be build in or close to points both standard and victory/muni/fuel, sand bags can still be used to defend but are no longer cheese when trying to take points.

Thoughts?
30 May 2020, 23:35 PM
#2
30 May 2020, 23:38 PM
#3
avatar of grammar

Posts: 28

If you can't build sandbags on or "close to" points, then you can't build sandbags on half the map, which is intrusively arbitrary.

Instead, you could shoot the sandbags with an AT gun.
30 May 2020, 23:51 PM
#4
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2020, 23:35 PMBaba
no

Great input as always
jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2020, 23:38 PMgrammar
If you can't build sandbags on or "close to" points, then you can't build sandbags on half the map, which is intrusively arbitrary.

Instead, you could shoot the sandbags with an AT gun.


That makes it sound like you cant walk without stepping onto a point, there is a huge amount of space where bags can be built, by not near I'm refering to not being able to literallyput them on the edge of the cap point.

31 May 2020, 00:01 AM
#5
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

im glad we talked about it ;)
31 May 2020, 00:07 AM
#6
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post30 May 2020, 23:33 PMLatch
Sandbags are a pain in the arse to assault against, every faction has this issue and the fact they can be built anywhere often leads to frustrating engagements.

Make then unable to be build in or close to points both standard and victory/muni/fuel, sand bags can still be used to defend but are no longer cheese when trying to take points.

Thoughts?


Disagree on the restriction

But 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% agree that they're an issue. Nerf build times and increase target size so AT guns can counter them.
31 May 2020, 00:14 AM
#7
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

Sandbags are ok, there are various tools to get the enemy to leave them, or you can just outright destroy them with any AT weapon, etc. Part of the game is to prepare yourself a position so that in future fights you have an advantage. They take some micro to build and they discourage the awful run&gun playstyle. I don't want to see any changes to sandbags... also trenches are significantly more powerful than sandbags.
31 May 2020, 00:28 AM
#8
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773



Disagree on the restriction

But 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% agree that they're an issue. Nerf build times and increase target size so AT guns can counter them.


If anything I agree on the target size, nothing more infuriating thn 5 shots to hit 1 sand bag once up close.

The issue with saying "use ATG's" is, well, sandbags can be used from the get go, its what 5 mins to rush an at gun and to rush it just for sandbags? come on.
31 May 2020, 01:00 AM
#9
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2229 | Subs: 1

the only sandbags i see a problem with are the ones built next to a flag. the micro for that is so annoying and it adds no real gameplay value. suggest a dead zone around the flag pole
31 May 2020, 02:13 AM
#10
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1917

the only sandbags i see a problem with are the ones built next to a flag. the micro for that is so annoying and it adds no real gameplay value. suggest a dead zone around the flag pole


Better yet, remove the flag poles. They don't really serve a purpose besides occasionally making one of my turretless-TD's waddle long enough to die to an AT gun.
31 May 2020, 02:16 AM
#11
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 02:13 AMGrumpy


Better yet, remove the flag poles. They don't really serve a purpose besides occasionally making one of my turretless-TD's waddle long enough to die to an AT gun.


that for once is a good idea
i mean those things dont even add to the immersion or something, just a pathing horror
31 May 2020, 02:59 AM
#12
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 778

Sandbags being hard to assault frontally is WAD. Literally the whole point of their existence.

It's one of the last mechanisms in the game against mindless A-move tactics and so I don't know why everyone wants to get rid of it so badly. And why wouldn't it be placeable on a strategic point in the map? That's the entire point of fortification...

If anything it should be more resilient to small arms fire(or at least natural green cover should last longer), given how quickly MGs seem to shred through them.

Buy yourself an indirect fire weapon like a mortar or something if you struggle so much against it. That's the whole reason why they exist in the first place and part of the reason why they suck so much ass now is because positioning is increasingly less and less important in the face of raw DPS and out of cover durability. Instead, it is almost always better almost every single time to just buy another infantry squad or something instead of a mortar.

If anything, the incredible efficiency of AT guns (particularly the USF one, but also the Raketen) versus light vehicles is the main thing making countering entrenchment so difficult mid-game IMO.

Seriously, why does everyone want to nerf cover so badly?
31 May 2020, 03:02 AM
#13
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

you keep mentioning "everybody", its only one person: OP.
31 May 2020, 09:59 AM
#14
avatar of Euan

Posts: 165

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 02:16 AMBaba
that for once is a good idea
i mean those things dont even add to the immersion or something, just a pathing horror


This. It was brought up last time as well.

It's not like sandbags are un-counterable, it's just an annoying, probably unintentional meta aspect of the game that they are spammed onto every point (especially OKW or Brits, although if Brits didn't have them they would be totally screwed) in some weird "one side of a pole" way that seems to work differently on every pole / map and make 20% of the game into some weird sandbag-building, fighting-against-invisible-hitboxes exercise

Just make the cap point flags passable. Then in CoH3 remove them entirely
31 May 2020, 12:06 PM
#15
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 717

I'd like to see sandbag replace by trench,it will cost more time and only 1 squad can use also need capture point first
31 May 2020, 12:42 PM
#16
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 02:13 AMGrumpy


Better yet, remove the flag poles. They don't really serve a purpose besides occasionally making one of my turretless-TD's waddle long enough to die to an AT gun.

Yes they should be only animation without any physical presence.

Sandbags should be transferred to engineers only unless in a commander ability.
31 May 2020, 14:08 PM
#17
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

Sandbags should be transferred to engineers only unless in a commander ability.

How would this improve gameplay?
31 May 2020, 14:35 PM
#18
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

How would this improve gameplay?


Less spam because generally there are only 1-2 engineer units around and they're needed for other roles too, so you'd only be able to build sandbags in vital places rather than place them everywhere your 3-4 mainline infantry squads go.

It was a mistake from Relic to add sandbags to mainline infantry (Cons could've gotten away with it). However currently sandbags on mainlines are a big part of their power level and tinkering with that would cause ripple effects that would probably require quite significant adjustments to fix, so that's not really something that could be done at this point.
31 May 2020, 14:58 PM
#19
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773


Buy yourself an indirect fire weapon like a mortar or something if you struggle so much against it. That's the whole reason why they exist in the first place and part of the reason why they suck so much ass now is because positioning is increasingly less and less important in the face of raw DPS and out of cover durability. Instead, it is almost always better almost every single time to just buy another infantry squad or something instead of a mortar.


How do I build a mobile mortar as UKF? Doctrine, to fight against a sandbag? or spend 350 mp on something that is static and an indirect fire magnet. You're right that mortars are the answer to entrenched units, but not all factions have access to them as easily as Ost.

OKW may have to back tech, USF same, SOV same and UKF, well, either doctrine or gamble on 350mp, and if the sandbags on your cut off for example, youll have a hard time finding a place to build one.
31 May 2020, 15:00 PM
#20
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 14:58 PMLatch
How do I build a mobile mortar as UKF? Doctrine, to fight against a sandbag? or spend 350 mp on something that is static and an indirect fire magnet. You're right that mortars are the answer to entrenched units, but not all factions have access to them as easily as Ost.

OKW may have to back tech, USF same, SOV same and UKF, well, either doctrine or gamble on 350mp, and if the sandbags on your cut off for example, youll have a hard time finding a place to build one.

Use UC with flamer, you get suppression resistant long range flame to force enemy out of cover.

Less spam because generally there are only 1-2 engineer units around and they're needed for other roles too, so you'd only be able to build sandbags in vital places rather than place them everywhere your 3-4 mainline infantry squads go.

It was a mistake from Relic to add sandbags to mainline infantry (Cons could've gotten away with it). However currently sandbags on mainlines are a big part of their power level and tinkering with that would cause ripple effects that would probably require quite significant adjustments to fix, so that's not really something that could be done at this point.

I respect your point of view, but I believe that sacrificing a squad of infantry for an extra engineer squad that provides you with very little firepower just to be able to build more sandbags would not be worth it, especially that after the first 6 mins of the game countering sandbags is pretty easy anyway.

Additionally, having current unrestricted way of building sandbags makes some poor map designs a bit easier to bear and balance, as all factions can build green cover.
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