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No use for Panzergrenadiers

29 May 2020, 19:55 PM
#1
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 77

Hey guys,

I have watched the games from UTT and noticed, no Wehrmacht player uses Panzergrenadiers. And me, as a 90% Wehrmacht player, must say they are totally useless respectively they are overpriced for what they do.

I really like them to play: Good RA, good DPS and with Vet 1 they synergize pretty well with tanks.

Problem: You cannot skip Grenadiers in order to build PGs. But if you got 3 Grens in early, there is no MP left for PGs + AC or AT Gun. You will get overrun.

And on top of that, they don't get price reduction with T4.

What is your opinion? Maybe some tips from pro gamers?
29 May 2020, 20:35 PM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4024 | Subs: 3

Now I'm not pro, but they do rely more on map than grens and require more micro to use than tactical control attack move LMG grens. I wouldn't call them bad in any respect, just not a no brainer. Not that grens are no brainers either, but you do require the faust in most games.
29 May 2020, 21:48 PM
#3
avatar of Konsumpartisane

Posts: 14

BartonPL plays BO with PGs
Jaeger Inf DOC
MG42
Pio
MG42
BP1
PG
PG
T2
Jaegers or additionally PG
AT-Gun

something like that. I mean it works for him, but it is Barton so you never know (still better then 99% of CoH2 players)
29 May 2020, 22:01 PM
#4
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Hey guys,

I have watched the games from UTT and noticed, no Wehrmacht player uses Panzergrenadiers. And me, as a 90% Wehrmacht player, must say they are totally useless respectively they are overpriced for what they do.

I really like them to play: Good RA, good DPS and with Vet 1 they synergize pretty well with tanks.

Problem: You cannot skip Grenadiers in order to build PGs. But if you got 3 Grens in early, there is no MP left for PGs + AC or AT Gun. You will get overrun.

And on top of that, they don't get price reduction with T4.

What is your opinion? Maybe some tips from pro gamers?


Because UTT is/was played on mostly open, long-range maps where Panzergrenadiers aren't very good. 2v2 automatch has plenty of maps where Panzergrens are good. Out of the UTT2 maps only Elst is good for Panzergrens and maybe Eindhoven if your spawn is on the castle side but then this is probably the place where you would put OKW in an arranged tournament game.

Wolfheze, Rails and Crossing are the exact type of map you don't go Panzergrenadiers on.
31 May 2020, 10:06 AM
#5
avatar of Euan

Posts: 158

I also find them a bit tricky to use. However they are not bad at all, still good at all ranges. They just don't stand out as much as they used to due to power creep on other factions & units, I guess.

The most recent tweaks to build order etc. were great, brought them back into the game more.

I find the doc where they get smoke nade makes them very useful, and people underestimate their power in the late game when rushing together with tanks. Also if you plan to go Shrecks due to the rest of your build, it's like you're building an AT unit but you get some free AI stuff in the meantime.

But yeah I dunno, I would love to hear the opinion of some high rank Wehr players (if anyone is visiting strategy forum these days...)
31 May 2020, 10:27 AM
#6
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1992 | Subs: 1

cool unit, i use them to flank lategame VP camper MG,s. USe them with tank attacks and exploit their sprint ability, also good with The smoke plane
1 Jun 2020, 15:54 PM
#7
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 270

Not a pro-gamer here but Panzer grens are great in team games where its grenade which is both fast and has a big boom, is great for wiping enemy squads.

Getting Shrek upgrade makes it a dedicated AT squad with slight infantry protection similar to when Strumpios get shreks, they lose half DPS with 2 shreks.

Also they have the inherent buff to fight well when nearby your armour so try and place them near your armour to buff them. Its a combined arms unit instead of a solo unit.
2 Jun 2020, 01:16 AM
#8
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2516 | Subs: 3

Nothing wrong with Panzergrens. They have super strong possible timing for quite a while now, and as you said their combat stats and veterancy is amazing too... in some situations they are crazy strong, in other situations you shouldn't get them, means they are not a no-brainer unit.
2 Jun 2020, 08:56 AM
#9
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 77

Everything what all of you said, is correct. And that's not my point.

IMO PGs have great combat effectiveness, but in fact, they don't fit into Wehrmacht building orders. Especially with T4 and cost reduction for most Wehr infantry, Grenadier spam is much more worthwhile.

The biggest problem is their timing in early/mid game. If you skip Grenadiers, build 2 MGs and tech straight for PGs, you will get outnumbered by Conscrips for example. And with Tommy blob again, you wont stand that long with 2 PGs. And then comes the AEC/UC or USF Flak HT and you have no Faust and no MP for AC/AT Gun.

So in conclusioan, as far as I can round up:

1. Early midgame/fast tech: Panzergrenadiers' high MP cost will conflict with too less infantry and no AT options on field in time.

2. Mid-/lategame: PGs on top with 3 Grenadiers is very expansive and with no Vet vs. double Bren/Bar blobs with Vet, they struggle hard.

And that's the reason, why almost no good Wehr players builds them. Am I wrong? I can't remember any high level game where PGs were on the field. And just to remember, I am not saying PGs are bad! I just want to know, why nobody builds them (including me) and what the reasons are. For me, see conclusion above.
2 Jun 2020, 09:47 AM
#10
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Don't underestimate the power of an elite infantry unit that requires no muni to trade with 120muni bar rifles or Tommies cqb. As such pgrens are a very useful way to save muni for a few tellers while retaining great AI early game. Spare muni like grenspam doesn't afford. Remember mines win games.

If you want to see how pro players use pgrens with commentary I suggest you look up a YouTube caster called imperialdane. He casts a lot of ostheer games and pgrens because they are two of his favorite parts of the game.



2 Jun 2020, 11:47 AM
#11
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 144

Watching UTT I thought a lack of good Panzergrenadier play was a crippling weakness for most axis teams. When they were built they were given G43s and used as regular elite infantry. But Axis players seemed content to allow mortar pits to be set up and rain on them for free without attempting to use covering smoke/ force brace/ hit them with Pgren shrecks and bundled nades. Walking Stukas and regular mortars proved unable to get the job done, so this would have been pretty useful.

Panzergrens are too expensive to frontline, but I think the understanding that these are just flanking CQC units is a bit outdated. Attempting deep flanks with Panzergrenadiers is quite risky given their low model count and the killing power of blobbed allied infantry. Instead, players should be taking advantage of their rapid movement near vehicles to quickly move them up for counterattacks. This makes a halftrack with Pgren shrecks a perfectly suitable answer to the mobile threat of T70, one that may be more useful for holding territory than the vulnerable Pak 40.

Unexplored synergies I thought the UTT exposed were: how artillery field officers with smoke/ mortar barrage combined with Pgren shrecks could have been a nice way of snuffing out an early mortar pit; how hulled down Command Tanks/ Panthers with supporting Pgrens might have been used to secure flanks more easily and prevent Ostheer players from being completely pushed off map.

This Midgame/Medium tank/Grindy meta lends itself to new strategies that don't rely on overwhelming infantry rushes or stalling for lategame heavies. We're just yet to see good adaptations by the top Ostheer players.
2 Jun 2020, 11:59 AM
#12
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 144

Hey guys,

I have watched the games from UTT and noticed, no Wehrmacht player uses Panzergrenadiers. And me, as a 90% Wehrmacht player, must say they are totally useless respectively they are overpriced for what they do.

I really like them to play: Good RA, good DPS and with Vet 1 they synergize pretty well with tanks.

Problem: You cannot skip Grenadiers in order to build PGs. But if you got 3 Grens in early, there is no MP left for PGs + AC or AT Gun. You will get overrun.

And on top of that, they don't get price reduction with T4.

What is your opinion? Maybe some tips from pro gamers?



To address your post more directly - I think there is scope for more Ostheer players to drop the third gren and pick up a 2nd pioneer with a flamethrower, and to drop down a cutoff bunker instead of a 2nd MG. It's easier to set up field defenses and keep up repairs with two engies, and getting a second one early saves on pop compared to a gren, gives you similar field presence and gets your repair veterency online earlier. A composition of double gren, double pgren and double engie is probably enough infantry if you're using them properly in concert with support weapons, vehicles and mines.
18 Jun 2020, 13:46 PM
#13
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 149

Personally, I wish they could split the shreck upgrade 50/50.

Would be nice to have a PG unit with one schreck for light vehicles.
18 Jun 2020, 20:12 PM
#14
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 608

Personally, I wish they could split the shreck upgrade 50/50.

Would be nice to have a PG unit with one schreck for light vehicles.


They had it in the past - but it means you can create blobs with both strong AI and AT like old volks and so was removed.
19 Jun 2020, 15:31 PM
#15
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 77

Panzerschreck has no use on PGs: A weapon with 35 range vs. vehicles with 40+ range on a 340 manpower super fragile elite unit is a total waste of ammo and manpower. AT gun or StuG is always better.

20 Jun 2020, 21:57 PM
#16
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1131

Panzerschreck has no use on PGs: A weapon with 35 range vs. vehicles with 40+ range on a 340 manpower super fragile elite unit is a total waste of ammo and manpower. AT gun or StuG is always better.



Some situations its really useful. You can field several PG, giving you great AI power, then lets say enemy has loads of AT, armour is sometimes too overpowered, if they dont have great AI, suddenly shreks become great.

Also you can use sprint on the PG to get into close range quickly. Also I like to combine with sprinting Grens for faust.
22 Dec 2020, 20:32 PM
#17
avatar of Dvs_lu

Posts: 5

Hey guys,

I have watched the games from UTT and noticed, no Wehrmacht player uses Panzergrenadiers. And me, as a 90% Wehrmacht player, must say they are totally useless respectively they are overpriced for what they do.

I really like them to play: Good RA, good DPS and with Vet 1 they synergize pretty well with tanks.

Problem: You cannot skip Grenadiers in order to build PGs. But if you got 3 Grens in early, there is no MP left for PGs + AC or AT Gun. You will get overrun.

And on top of that, they don't get price reduction with T4.

What is your opinion? Maybe some tips from pro gamers?


I set my bulletins for them and they wreck in 2v2

22 Dec 2020, 22:00 PM
#18
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1589 | Subs: 3

Panzerschreck has no use on PGs: A weapon with 35 range vs. vehicles with 40+ range on a 340 manpower super fragile elite unit is a total waste of ammo and manpower. AT gun or StuG is always better.



That's why slot weapons (read Panzerschrecks) are being moved to front models of Panzergrenadiers in the new patch, in live it's carried by the rear models that always slack behind.

Some squads have also been adjusted so their support/slot weapons are placed at the front of the squad to increase responsiveness.

Heavy weapons - ie Panzerschrecks - now go to the front in V-Formation: Panzergrenadiers. Stormtroopers


In practice that should make them feel like they have more range.
22 Dec 2020, 22:39 PM
#19
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 917

Panzerschreck has no use on PGs: A weapon with 35 range vs. vehicles with 40+ range on a 340 manpower super fragile elite unit is a total waste of ammo and manpower. AT gun or StuG is always better.



shreks are defensive weapons, and you are aware that they gain massive buffs near vehicles right?
22 Dec 2020, 23:50 PM
#20
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3037

Panzerschreck has no use on PGs: A weapon with 35 range vs. vehicles with 40+ range on a 340 manpower super fragile elite unit is a total waste of ammo and manpower. AT gun or StuG is always better.


Schrecks are for making sure your AT gun and StuG don't get flanked, not for going out and killing tanks (assuming your opponent is at all competent).
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