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Assault Grenadier spam - every, single, game. What gives?

26 May 2020, 05:49 AM
#1
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1040

Returned to CoH2 recently on account of lockdown. 4v4s are somehow more imbalanced than they were 5 years ago but 1v1s have been vaguely diverting.

But,

What is with low tier Ostheer players and Assgren spam? Every game - the same opener. Assault grens and MG go to fuel. From there, more assault grens into Pgrens. Most of the time. I can usually counter it because these players are quite inflexible and early M20/M5 (depending on how badly things have gone for them) counters it nicely. My downfall is micro and unit preservation, so if they can crack me with that then I'm in trouble.

All the same, when they're simply a better player (actually, no, better at this one strat) than me it is incredibly unfun and dull to be run over by these assault grens who from minute 1 are better at everything you do and can shut down any flanks on MGs (which is all you got in the first few minutes of the game!) Bonus points when your opponent knows the game well enough to lay down their minefields so you can't harass them either.

What's the trick with handling these guys? Vehicles only go so far if they're good at the strat and I'm low on fuel. They usually have Pgrens with shreks by then and it's a lot harder to bully the assgrens at that point.
Every game against OH as US is the same, the question is only whether the dude I'm facing is good at the strat or not. I can see why OH still polls as the most OP faction. A doctrine which basically makes them immune to flanks tends to do that.
26 May 2020, 06:28 AM
#2
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

You basically need to "flip the roles" against AGrens; force the OST player to fight at range, rather than trying to fight up close. AGrens are pretty expensive to field as a mainline unit (280mp/28mp reinforce) and they're only good at close range; so if you can drop their models while they're trying to close on your units (which is fairly easy before T3's VSL upgrade), you can usually come out ahead. M1919s and .50-cal MGs can be effective, as are well micro'd vehicles (AA-HT especially) at max range, since schrecks are pretty terrible at long range.

Once you reach mid/late game, really any AI focused tank (basic M4 with HE, M8 Scott, etc.) will do enough damage to force them back.

Additionally, you could try playing OST and going AGrens. I find that trying to play what I perceive as an "OP Strategy" ends up showing its weaknesses far more often than it confirms my perception of it being "OP".

I can see why OH still polls as the most OP faction. A doctrine which basically makes them immune to flanks tends to do that.


OST pretty consistently ranks as the most UP faction (now that UKF has been buffed), at least on this forum.
26 May 2020, 07:22 AM
#3
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3478 | Subs: 1

You basically need to "flip the roles" against AGrens; force the OST player to fight at range, rather than trying to fight up close. AGrens are pretty expensive to field as a mainline unit (280mp/28mp reinforce) and they're only good at close range; so if you can drop their models while they're trying to close on your units (which is fairly easy before T3's VSL upgrade), you can usually come out ahead. M1919s and .50-cal MGs can be effective, as are well micro'd vehicles (AA-HT especially) at max range, since schrecks are pretty terrible at long range.

Once you reach mid/late game, really any AI focused tank (basic M4 with HE, M8 Scott, etc.) will do enough damage to force them back.

Additionally, you could try playing OST and going AGrens. I find that trying to play what I perceive as an "OP Strategy" ends up showing its weaknesses far more often than it confirms my perception of it being "OP".



OST pretty consistently ranks as the most UP faction (now that UKF has been buffed), at least on this forum.


The problem isn't the assgren spam but the HMG42 in the middle. Assgren are perfecly fine in a vacuum but not with superior pio vision and the hmg42 around it during the early game.

If as you say we only need to flip the side then the hmg42 should be locked behind T2 if assgren are deployed.
26 May 2020, 08:16 AM
#4
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1040

I'll admit I was quite salty at the time of making the OP, since I lost a game that had me just being run over by a guy who used them well and mined well.
I get having to flip the range, but as Esxile notes, that's not always possible with HMGs in the mix, especially on fuel points etc which the axis players tend to just drop an MG on pretty early on.

I'm more curious as to why this is such a common strat at the low levels where I'm at. It's constant. Let's say out of 10 games I've played recently vs OH as US, every single one has had assgren spam. As I said, it gets old, especially when they get run over by an early vehicle.

I'm also curious as to why UKF is better than OH - every time I bring them out I get run over (usually by the same assgren spam).
26 May 2020, 08:25 AM
#5
avatar of Partisanship

Posts: 260

I primarily play Soviets, and the Ass gren spam feels comparable to the Sturmpioneer advantage. The way I've dealt with it with conscripts was to know the map and position myself in a way that forces the opponent to either approach without cover while taking fire, or have to shoot at them in buildings. The thing with assault infantry is that they have to always press the advantage, so your best bet to counter is to punish their haste whenever possible. With the US, I expect the Riflemen would put up a better fight than even the cons. By mid game, you should at least have something like a suppression option or light vehicle to bully them away. Assgrens are fairly weak come armor dominance, so it's really a case of just waiting out the advantage.
26 May 2020, 08:59 AM
#6
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Improve your micro.
26 May 2020, 09:22 AM
#7
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1


OST pretty consistently ranks as the most UP faction (now that UKF has been buffed), at least on this forum.


Might have been true several patches ago but I really don't think any half-decent player would say that Ost is the weakest faction now. They are strong which explains why OKW is used very rarely now when people play 1v1 in tournaments.
26 May 2020, 13:47 PM
#8
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Flavour of the month.

Assault Grens are more straight forward and easier to use than Osstruppen strats.
26 May 2020, 13:57 PM
#9
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

Flavour of the month.

Assault Grens are more straight forward and easier to use than Osstruppen strats.


Exactly, and you can observe the same thing at a smaller extend with the Assault section from the UKF.
26 May 2020, 14:33 PM
#10
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

Get a light vehicle if you can. Blob your units and hope you don't run into the MG42. Assault grens can easily win 1v1 against your basic infantry squads and your machine guns are too trash to supress sprinting assault grens. Don't play agressively, don't spread out.
26 May 2020, 15:12 PM
#11
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1849 | Subs: 1

What Aero said. Ass Grens into PGrens mean they have no snares so M20, Vickers UC (spam the suppress ability), and Flamer clown car wreck these strategies. Doctrinally the USF Jeep and M5 meatchopper also help out (M5 meatchoppers also forces off 222s and Flamer HTs if they go that route)
26 May 2020, 16:17 PM
#12
avatar of Euan

Posts: 158

It's definitely a doctrine that, at a certain level of play, is a bit overused as an easy-but-effective strategy.

But as others have implied, if you study and think about it a bit, they're quite possible to beat and past a certain rank they drop off of the meta considerably.

Assgrens were also buffed a bit recently so they are back in fashion. The buff made sense however due to their non-viability at higher ranks, and past nerfs to the doctrine (if you think it's a noob doctrine now, glad you don't remember when the StuH could 1v1 a Sherman...).
26 May 2020, 16:30 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

The problem has to do with how bad are grenadier at attacking, so people prefer going to AsG or Ostruppen that at least allow map control.
26 May 2020, 16:38 PM
#14
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905

What Aero said. Ass Grens into PGrens mean they have no snares so M20, Vickers UC (spam the suppress ability), and Flamer clown car wreck these strategies. Doctrinally the USF Jeep and M5 meatchopper also help out (M5 meatchoppers also forces off 222s and Flamer HTs if they go that route)


OP plays mostly USF -

The M20 loves Ass Gren spam, as it can chase them off just fine, and sometimes dive in behind the MG42 and decrew it. Skip 50 cals, as they're easy to flank. Play a little bit conservatively with rifles, as spreading them out means you'll lose a lot of 1v1 battles. Get BAR's as soon as possible. Ass Grens into PGrens leaves them with no snare, so forcing off the PGrens leaves them really vulnerable. As USF, I'd much rather face this than somebody who has good sniper micro.
26 May 2020, 17:24 PM
#15
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 07:22 AMEsxile
The problem isn't the assgren spam but the HMG42 in the middle. Assgren are perfecly fine in a vacuum but not with superior pio vision and the hmg42 around it during the early game.

If as you say we only need to flip the side then the hmg42 should be locked behind T2 if assgren are deployed.

As long as you stay at max range, the MG42 isn't very effective (just back up as soon as it fires). USF also has access to a lot of smoke, so that can help, too. Realistically, the MG42 is going to prevent you from pushing the OST player, and the AGrens are going to fight by themselves far in front of the MG.

If you run into a situation where you're being suppressed by an MG42 AND are fighting AGrens at close range, you've made a mistake.

I get having to flip the range, but as Esxile notes, that's not always possible with HMGs in the mix, especially on fuel points etc which the axis players tend to just drop an MG on pretty early on.


As I said above, there shouldn't be too many situations where you're being fired on by an MG42 at the same time as you're fighting AGrens at close range. AGrens need to be used aggressively (i.e. pushing), which usually means staying ahead of the MG42 - which needs to move and setup to be useful. If you're really having trouble with the MGs, perhaps going for a fast Pack-Howitzer would help, as those tend to melt support weapons. Additionally, as others have pointed out, without grens there's no snare. That can be exploited heavily with decent vehicle use.

Also, it's always helpful to post some replays. There are a lot of skilled players who can give you advice/suggestions.

I'm more curious as to why this is such a common strat at the low levels where I'm at. It's constant. Let's say out of 10 games I've played recently vs OH as US, every single one has had assgren spam. As I said, it gets old, especially when they get run over by an early vehicle.

It works well (as is popular) because by default, OST is pretty bad at pushing:
jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 16:30 PMVipper
The problem has to do with how bad are grenadier at attacking, so people prefer going to AsG or Ostruppen that at least allow map control.


By going AGrens, OST ends up fighting against players who except you to play statically, and focus their build around dislodging LMG Grens and MG42s, but instead run into a highly mobile force, which they probably aren't equipped to deal with (or they don't have experience dealing with it).

I'm also curious as to why UKF is better than OH - every time I bring them out I get run over (usually by the same assgren spam).


UKF was pretty terrible in terms of power, and is pretty terrible in terms of design. However, the most recent patch buffed a bunch of things (notably, IS' when moving), so while UKF's design is still pretty bad, their individual units are decently strong.

Might have been true several patches ago but I really don't think any half-decent player would say that Ost is the weakest faction now. They are strong which explains why OKW is used very rarely now when people play 1v1 in tournaments.


There's only been one major patch since this poll, so I assume its still fairly accurate in regards to community sentiment. Roughly 80 votes (a lot for this forum), and its pretty clearly "USF/Sov > OKW > OST > UKF". Since the most recent patch didn't really change all that much in the early/mid game (except UKF's IS moving acc), I assume its still fairly accurate.

With that said, a new poll could be made, as the data is always nice to have.
26 May 2020, 17:43 PM
#16
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3478 | Subs: 1


As long as you stay at max range, the MG42 isn't very effective (just back up as soon as it fires). USF also has access to a lot of smoke, so that can help, too. Realistically, the MG42 is going to prevent you from pushing the OST player, and the AGrens are going to fight by themselves far in front of the MG.

If you run into a situation where you're being suppressed by an MG42 AND are fighting AGrens at close range, you've made a mistake.



Lol yes of course how stupid we are.
26 May 2020, 18:00 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

...
By going AGrens, OST ends up fighting against players who except you to play statically, and focus their build around dislodging LMG Grens and MG42s, but instead run into a highly mobile force, which they probably aren't equipped to deal with (or they don't have experience dealing with it).
...

If that was the case the would relay at grenadier in tournaments yet as far as I know AsG and Ostru are very common in tournament also. Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power until T4 and even then he might be straggling.
26 May 2020, 19:58 PM
#18
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 18:00 PMVipper

If that was the case the would relay at grenadier in tournaments yet as far as I know AsG and Ostru are very common in tournament also. Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power until T4 and even then he might be straggling.


Map control, map control, map control. Fast transition into T2 PG and light vehicles. All that is the most relevant for 1v1.

But add a single more player and things change a lot. Once OH doesn't have to spread out thin, they can do fine with just Grens and MG42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5lY9UfGKYM

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1QsLnpWUVHZXPcg4GDfGLOc7-NDjnKk

Haven't watch all games but for what i remember it seems that there are 2 main routes. Grenadier spam into 5 man upgrade or LMG42 Grens with Mg/sniper play when using Jaeger armor.
26 May 2020, 20:03 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 18:00 PMVipper

If that was the case the would relay at grenadier in tournaments yet as far as I know AsG and Ostru are very common in tournament also. Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power until T4 and even then he might be straggling.

I don't think you've seen a lot/any tournament game, speaking of recent qualifications over last 2 weekends.
26 May 2020, 20:12 PM
#20
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 17:43 PMEsxile
Lol yes of course how stupid we are.


That wasn't intended as an insult - it's just how the unit composition works. AGrens are aggressive, close-quarters units; that means they need to be pushing constantly to be useful (or holding really strange angles behind LOS blockers). The MG42 is exact opposite of this; it needs to stay stationary, and facing a single direction, or it suffers a large penalty (in the form of setup/teardown times). The two just don't synergize that well when attacking.

In a defensive roll, yes, the two actually work very well together, since flanking/pushing the MG becomes incredibly risky. However, if a match turns into a 'defensive war', the player with better long range DPS wins; and if the OST player invested into AGrens, they've given up a lot of their long range DPS.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 18:00 PMVipper
If that was the case the would relay at grenadier in tournaments yet as far as I know AsG and Ostru are very common in tournament also. Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power until T4 and even then he might be straggling.


The reply was specifically in the context of "why this is such a common strat at the low levels", at higher levels, dynamics change completely.
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