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[Feuersturm] MP40 and Hetzer

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25 May 2020, 08:30 AM
#121
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 08:20 AMVipper

SVT is a similar issue with VG's MP44. It as superior weapon at almost all ranges...

Another issue with MP44 is that is profile is completely different to that of SP MP44 with little communication to user.

Superior to what? Mosins?
It has less then half the DPS of SMGs at CQC and whole squad put together have less DPS then single LMG42.
That doesn't sound too superior to me.
25 May 2020, 08:36 AM
#122
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8701 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 08:30 AMKatitof

Superior to what? Mosins?
It has less then half the DPS of SMGs at CQC and whole squad put together have less DPS then single LMG42.
That doesn't sound too superior to me.

Well that does not say much. It also sound to you that SVT upgrade for conscripts was the not cost efficient enough..
25 May 2020, 08:39 AM
#123
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15610 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 08:36 AMVipper

Well that does not say much. It also sound to you that SVT upgrade for conscripts was the not cost efficient enough..

I said its not good enough with 3 rifles.
Can you go into the game, use it and count the rifles now?
25 May 2020, 10:42 AM
#124
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8701 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 08:39 AMKatitof

I said its not good enough with 3 rifles.
Can you go into the game, use it and count the rifles now?

Can you stop blatantly lying?

This is exactly what you wrote and it had absolutely nothing to do with the number of weapon it provided, according to you it had to do with the DPS:

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Mar 2019, 20:20 PMKatitof
Is it intended that medical crate drop from reinforce point can be dropped literally anywhere on the map?

Also, its the ost medical crate paradrop, which means it buffs rec acc and acc by ~15% per crate, stacking 3 times.

And lastly, what is the point of SVT drop?
I mean, outside of spamming SVT CEs, what's the point of even having the ability at all?

For conscripts, in close range, it adds ~5,5 DPS and at long range it adds ~3 DPS.
Cost to effectiveness, these values are meme worthy and pretty outrageously low, especially for 45 muni, which is a cost of actual weapon upgrades that do add meaningful DPS at all ranges and on the move(gren/PG G43s).

For that kind of low increase, I don't see the reason to use it at all and just pray for weapon drop from opponent for cons.



Which team mates?
The only squads that don't have access to better small arms are conscripts and combat engineers.
Tommie lee enfields are much stronger and so are Rifles Garands.
25 May 2020, 11:41 AM
#125
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4210 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 05:31 AMSerrith

Snip


You would still want volks for the map control and the snare, and if they had the Mp40 the smoke not to mention pop cap and wipe resistance.

We do seem to have a different definition, but even using yours I've established that elite infantry has a bit more leeway due to being more exclusive. You are going to get FG42s for falls as well, but as elite infantry it's more a function of allowing them to be more accessible than a flat upgrade. If that makes sense.


In your hypothetical, yea you would still get cons even if you had shocks and guards for the utility they bring (guards behind cover are even tougher than in the open) and for map control and support fire on your shocks. You would probably even upgrade one or two to ppshs just to make them more threatening to draw fire off your high bleed shocks. If they had Svts of course you would build them because then they are better chasing and better skirmishing. You would likely not leave a single squad unupgraded if you had svts because why would you? That's the issue.

As I said, look at their rifles if they need it, but no upgrade should be a viable path and a poorly designed flat upgrade should be addressed. It would be different as a doctrinal ability or on a less plentiful unit but such an upgrade hitting so soon on cheap, multipurpose, durable infantry that is already alongside specialists is just shitty design.
25 May 2020, 15:35 PM
#126
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 471


...


The only squads where upgrades are not mandatory at some point are squads that have powerful or specialist weapons stock.
Conscripts went for a long time without stock upgrades and suffered for it. The only thing that allowed soviet infantry to stay competitive was doctrinal elite infantry and penals. That's despite the theoretical "utility" cons provided. Take away the 7 man upgrade and cons will be rarely taken without doctrinal upgrades just like they used to be.


The power dynamic between the stg44 and allied infantry is a good one. Volks trade poorly with rifles initially, situationally poorly against IS, and evenly against conscripts. Volks recieve a potential power spike if you havent been dumping tons of munitions into grenades. Allied factions recieve a power spike shortly following this via racks or in the case of Soviets, elite infantry. This dynamic is very important as it forces the OKW player to weigh the costs of throwing tons of low damage grenades early on. UKF and USF dont have repeating munitions costs early on(unless you go for grenade tech) which let's them bank for rack upgrades or medkits. Soviets is a different story, but this timing and munitions expenditure dynamic is made possible by the ebb and flow of infantry power. Taking away volks power spike will disrupt that, and I have not seen a good reason that should be the case except that you find the upgrade "boring"
If you feel the upgrade is UNBALANCED, then that is another story.

You know what else is a boring upgrade? Pintle machine guns. Or rear echelon sweepers. Or cavalry rifle thompsons. Or UKF tank commanders. Sometimes boring upgrades are necessary to allow units to reach desired performance levels without being free.
You may as well raise volks cost to 300 and reinforce to 27 but give them a stat increase roughly equivalent to the stg upgrade. At least that way they'll scale properly and have a similar investment in cost over time while not having a "brainless upgrade".

Edit: I'm unsure as to why you are referring to volks as "durable". Once upon a time they had a recieved accuracy of like 0.6, but those days are long past us. In fact they are the second squishiest stock mainline infantry after grenadiers, even after vet. With vet, they match a Vetted rear echelon for durability.
25 May 2020, 16:14 PM
#127
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8701 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 15:35 PMSerrith

...
The only squads where upgrades are not mandatory at some point are squads that have powerful or specialist weapons stock.
....
The power dynamic between the stg44 and allied infantry is a good one. Volks trade poorly with rifles initially, situationally poorly against IS, and evenly against conscripts...


That inaccurate. VGs trade well at long vs allied infatry with or without MP44 (the effect of MP44 is legible). They do not trade well vs riflemen at mid with K98.

MP44 basically help VGs at mid and close range not long range.
25 May 2020, 18:24 PM
#128
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7276 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 15:35 PMSerrith


The only squads where upgrades are not mandatory at some point are squads that have powerful or specialist weapons stock.
Conscripts went for a long time without stock upgrades and suffered for it. The only thing that allowed soviet infantry to stay competitive was doctrinal elite infantry and penals. That's despite the theoretical "utility" cons provided. Take away the 7 man upgrade and cons will be rarely taken without doctrinal upgrades just like they used to be.



They would probably still be used in the current meta against OH. They would probably see less use against OKW.

When the mata is not late game heavy tanks, OH can make use of their early-mid game commanders. T1 openings with Penals lose too much map control and maxim spam is no longer a thing. People might try transitions into with snipers or PTRS penals but i think it would be too risky against 222/FHT.
25 May 2020, 23:05 PM
#129
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4210 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 May 2020, 15:35 PMSerrith


The only squads where upgrades are not mandatory at some point are squads that have powerful or specialist weapons stock.
Conscripts went for a long time without stock upgrades and suffered for it. The only thing that allowed soviet infantry to stay competitive was doctrinal elite infantry and penals. That's despite the theoretical "utility" cons provided. Take away the 7 man upgrade and cons will be rarely taken without doctrinal upgrades just like they used to be.

cons were fine in the oh matchup, it wasnt until okw came along that that got nuked. the okw with the elite engineer and obersoldaten whos ai potential lives up to the name. them and of coures volks who have traded incredibly well against cons since the start (which imo was mostly fine, given the utility of cons)
now, you take away the 7th man and soviet will suffer, but thats because there would be no elite infantry to pick up the slack. you are comparing volks and cons like there isnt obers hitting the same time 7 man does... it doesnt blend because unlike CHANGING the volks upgrade, there isnt anyhting to make up for a con nerf.


The power dynamic between the stg44 and allied infantry is a good one. Volks trade poorly with rifles initially, situationally poorly against IS, and evenly against conscripts. Volks recieve a potential power spike if you havent been dumping tons of munitions into grenades. Allied factions recieve a power spike shortly following this via racks or in the case of Soviets, elite infantry. This dynamic is very important as it forces the OKW player to weigh the costs of throwing tons of low damage grenades early on. UKF and USF dont have repeating munitions costs early on(unless you go for grenade tech) which let's them bank for rack upgrades or medkits. Soviets is a different story, but this timing and munitions expenditure dynamic is made possible by the ebb and flow of infantry power. Taking away volks power spike will disrupt that, and I have not seen a good reason that should be the case except that you find the upgrade "boring"
If you feel the upgrade is UNBALANCED, then that is another story.

i do find the upgrade unbalanced and strangles the potential of okw faction design. the damn thing was literally stapled on without any thought when shrek was removed and it shows. such a move shouldnt be dictating infantry balance.

You know what else is a boring upgrade? Pintle machine guns. Or rear echelon sweepers. Or cavalry rifle thompsons. Or UKF tank commanders. Sometimes boring upgrades are necessary to allow units to reach desired performance levels without being free.

pintles id argue actually are optional, they offer a bit of dps but they come at a time when thinking about munitions for off maps ect, they dont have as high an impact as a 3rd minute weapon upgrade on a squad thats going to be around for nother 30 minutes or so. echelon sweepers too, while valuable, one might decide to keep that extra firepower.
both of these items are actually optional and one might elect to forgoe them, unlike stgs, which you will not ever forgoe, ayt any point. they are not a question of if, but when

You may as well raise volks cost to 300 and reinforce to 27 but give them a stat increase roughly equivalent to the stg upgrade. At least that way they'll scale properly and have a similar investment in cost over time while not having a "brainless upgrade".


thats ludacris. come on, i know you are better than that. granted the thought it took for you to type that is likley approximately the amount given initially to the stg upgrade before implementation...

Edit: I'm unsure as to why you are referring to volks as "durable". Once upon a time they had a recieved accuracy of like 0.6, but those days are long past us. In fact they are the second squishiest stock mainline infantry after grenadiers, even after vet. With vet, they match a Vetted rear echelon for durability.

well, id say they are durable because in the short list of stock axis squads from 2 factions volks are literally the only 1 with more than 5 men and excluding the doctrinal ability ost has that can make squads 5 men because...well obviously thats a special case, there are 3 other axis squads that get as many men (ostroppen of course have 6 men then ass grens and fussies have 5 but both of whom can up the ante to 6 men)
volks also get a 10% rec acc reduction at vet 1 which certainly doesnt hurt... nor does the self healing

id love to see their vet returned to something more substantial and unique, like i said seeing the vet 3 self heal back. as a matter of fact id make that a priority coupled with the mp40 change.
26 May 2020, 00:33 AM
#130
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 471

...


With the shift in meta towards callin infantry and G43s, cons have an issue today against OH without having upgrades of their own.

I dont find the upgrade unbalanced. It's boring, but I don't see OKW instantly seizing the entire map upon equipping volks stgs. Ironically, where I DO see that happening is when OKW is running up against stock cons or IS and start popping the MP40 upgrade. Good thing its locked behind an unpopular doctrine.

Please tell me you dont choose to forgo sweepers on your RE. That's a rookie mistake that I would make, not an intended tactic. Pintle are optional in the same way you may delay your STG upgrade by using incendiary grenades. That doesnt make it any less "boring".


I dont think it's fair to use grenadiers as volks only comparison. It would be like saying the Cromwell is a great medium tank and using the T-34/76 as its comparison.

I do NOT want to see the return of accessible self healing for volks. Its bollocks already with IS and at least that has a cost and micro tax attached.
29 May 2020, 18:33 PM
#131
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2355

Bumping this thread to keep the fact that 12+12+44=68% of the voters suggested at least one hetzer buff.

Would it be worth to make hetzer a call-in unit with cooldown like heavy tanks do?
29 May 2020, 19:24 PM
#132
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 201

I need solid proposition to make a new thread around hetzer buff, mine was to turn it into a call-in like the Stug-E (5 or 6 CP)
29 May 2020, 20:16 PM
#133
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4210 | Subs: 1

i think tying it behind 2 trucks might be enough. then it can be rushed via med + mech at the cost of delaying proper armour. risk v reward
29 May 2020, 20:20 PM
#134
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 201

I think the problem will remain, a normal Build order require one of Mec/Med+T3, not both mec and med then T3
29 May 2020, 21:15 PM
#135
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4210 | Subs: 1

I think the problem will remain, a normal Build order require one of Mec/Med+T3, not both mec and med then T3

probably, but at least then it COULD be rushed. its better than nothing
29 May 2020, 21:25 PM
#136
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2863

Nerf Hetzer to 251 flame HT levels, put it in BGHQ.

OKW benefits and it's less cancerous to deal with. Firestorm is also more viable cuz fast hetzer is a good solution vs mg heavy play which makes MP40 volk builds suffer.
30 May 2020, 05:10 AM
#137
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 471

Nerf Hetzer to 251 flame HT levels, put it in BGHQ.

OKW benefits and it's less cancerous to deal with. Firestorm is also more viable cuz fast hetzer is a good solution vs mg heavy play which makes MP40 volk builds suffer.



Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. You can have it be the BGHQ version of a luchs-just worse against vehicles and better vs infantry.

The armor would have to be reduced though to allow early game allied AT to be more reliable at damaging it. Maybe down to 120 or 140 so itll still shrug off stuart and T70 hits but be more vulnerable to zooks and PTRS. A reduction in hit points to 480 as well.

The cost could go down to 70ish fuel.
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