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[Feuersturm] MP40 and Hetzer

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22 May 2020, 20:01 PM
#81
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3013

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 11:50 AMVipper

I agree and have suggested the same thing in the past.

On the other hand from a design point of view MP-40 as stock upgrade for VG would be much better than the atrocity MP-44 are. One would have to choose how many VG would be left with K98 or upgraded and it would create more room for OKW doctrinal units.

As in people would never keep kar98 volks becuase they are objectively worse and would either get doctrinal infantry or give them all mp40s. They'd be like worse pre-7-man conscripts at that point and OKW would have to rely on either cheese or doctrinal infantry more than they already do.

That or you buff the crap out of kar98 volks and they're way too good for their cost.
22 May 2020, 20:10 PM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8845 | Subs: 1


As in people would never keep kar98 volks becuase they are objectively worse and would either get doctrinal infantry or give them all mp40s. They'd be like worse pre-7-man conscripts at that point and OKW would have to rely on either cheese or doctrinal infantry more than they already do.

That or you buff the crap out of kar98 volks and they're way too good for their cost.

Well if that was true they would little changes from now that they give all of the MP44s.

At least one would have to use them in the correct range unlike now.
22 May 2020, 21:12 PM
#83
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4365 | Subs: 1

Can the hetz be locked behind 2 trucks? Then it could be rushed and find place in a med+mech truck build.
22 May 2020, 21:17 PM
#84
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4365 | Subs: 1


As in people would never keep kar98 volks becuase they are objectively worse and would either get doctrinal infantry or give them all mp40s. They'd be like worse pre-7-man conscripts at that point and OKW would have to rely on either cheese or doctrinal infantry more than they already do.

That or you buff the crap out of kar98 volks and they're way too good for their cost.

Or they could use their elite non doc infantry. That was never an option for soviet and that was why cons fell flat.

Kar98 volks are only slightly worse at range than stg volks so as longer range infantry they wouldn't be much worse than now and mp40 volks could pick up the slack(kinda like when a soviet player goes ppsh cons, which was a viable alternative to elite infantry) only it wouldn't be doctrinal and would also still have access to elite infantry....

You can't really compare soviet/ okw on a design level because soviet was designed to lack tools that were given doctrinally while okw was designed to have nearly everything but limited access via cost.

Mixing and matching upgrades and infantry should be arrived for not one size fits all.
22 May 2020, 21:19 PM
#85
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 140

One way to make it relevant is to give it the valentine treatment:

-CP requirment call in
-limited to one

"Panic hetzer" - for when the drunken UKF player decides to go bofors in 1v1
22 May 2020, 22:57 PM
#86
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


hanother 251?

Maybe another "elite" (because OKW) 251 FHT is the way to go.

It fixes two big issues. Tightly related to predictability.
Firstly Axis usefulness. It need to have an impact. Othewise its the same as the current hetzer.
Secondly allied already have an expected impact from 251 HT's so if OKW can pull the same trick its a known one.

Main differences are, 251 has directional fire and double flame proyectors meanwhile hetzer has a single on a casemate but sturdier and slower.

If hetzer is locked in BGHQ and need the second truck released you get a nice timing (much earlier than before OFC) but also there are ATGs already present to give some counter play to allied players.
22 May 2020, 22:57 PM
#87
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 547


Or they could use their elite non doc infantry. That was never an option for soviet and that was why cons fell flat.

Kar98 volks are only slightly worse at range than stg volks so as longer range infantry they wouldn't be much worse than now and mp40 volks could pick up the slack(kinda like when a soviet player goes ppsh cons, which was a viable alternative to elite infantry) only it wouldn't be doctrinal and would also still have access to elite infantry....

You can't really compare soviet/ okw on a design level because soviet was designed to lack tools that were given doctrinally while okw was designed to have nearly everything but limited access via cost.

Mixing and matching upgrades and infantry should be arrived for not one size fits all.


Well I just dont find k98 volks to be cost effective as the game goes on. They are alright at first when they are facing infantry without upgrades but 5 man sections-let alone 5 man sections with brens- BAR rifles, 7 man cons, penals and any number of other infantry are just going to trade too well with unupgraded volks in the mid and late game. The MP44 is currently a necessary upgrade to keep them scaled properly.

Not to mention all the elite infantry options for OKW are superior long range options to K98 volks both in actual performance and cost effectiveness.
23 May 2020, 03:47 AM
#88
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2020, 22:57 PMSerrith


Well I just dont find k98 volks to be cost effective as the game goes on. They are alright at first when they are facing infantry without upgrades but 5 man sections-let alone 5 man sections with brens- BAR rifles, 7 man cons, penals and any number of other infantry are just going to trade too well with unupgraded volks in the mid and late game. The MP44 is currently a necessary upgrade to keep them scaled properly.

Not to mention all the elite infantry options for OKW are superior long range options to K98 volks both in actual performance and cost effectiveness.


Other allied upgrades are problematic too, but are a symptom of the stgs not the other way around. Adjusting volks and the way rifles interact with Bars should be done at the same time (I suggest limiting hem to 1 BAR until vetted so they don't power spike so dramatically but instead scale) and tommines need a whole rework. 7 man cons are a non issue in the okw match up simply because they would get murdered by obers (as they should) and volks in cover or with any support would do well enough now that cons lost the cover bonus.

Volks scaling should be mostly from their vet. The vet that got gutted because of.... Drum roll please.... The fucking stg upgrade. Okw elite infantry specializing in long range firepower is why volks should refine to close range so they don't step on toes and promote diverse builds. Volks were never meant to go toe to toe effeciently against upgraded allied infantry that's why okw has a strong starting unit and an uber late game AI unit. Volks shouldn't be filling the same role as rifles but lite, they are a different unit in a different army with different (and more accessible) support units.
23 May 2020, 04:56 AM
#89
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 547



Other allied upgrades are problematic too, but are a symptom of the stgs not the other way around. Adjusting volks and the way rifles interact with Bars should be done at the same time (I suggest limiting hem to 1 BAR until vetted so they don't power spike so dramatically but instead scale) and tommines need a whole rework. 7 man cons are a non issue in the okw match up simply because they would get murdered by obers (as they should) and volks in cover or with any support would do well enough now that cons lost the cover bonus.

Volks scaling should be mostly from their vet. The vet that got gutted because of.... Drum roll please.... The fucking stg upgrade. Okw elite infantry specializing in long range firepower is why volks should refine to close range so they don't step on toes and promote diverse builds. Volks were never meant to go toe to toe effeciently against upgraded allied infantry that's why okw has a strong starting unit and an uber late game AI unit. Volks shouldn't be filling the same role as rifles but lite, they are a different unit in a different army with different (and more accessible) support units.



First. Allied upgrades were not because of STGs, bolster and weapon racks existed when volks still had shreks.
The fact that 7 man cons fare poorly against obers has no bearing on if Volks should be able to fight cost effectively in general. The fact k98 volks get stomped by penals does not mean conscripts should be weaker.
In addition, cons are not having their cover bonus removed, it is only getting reduced and it still doesnt change the fact that they have 17% more firepower at all ranges then a stock con squad to begin with.

Volks vet nerfs began when they still sported shreks as it was silly you could have an ultra durable spammable squad with affordable reinforcement that could engage vehicles effectively. It is incorrect to address volks vet nerfs solely-or even majority based- on the stg upgrade.

The fact is that with the exception of brits, all factions have at least one squad that is moderately effective at all ranges with a slight emphasis towards one range or another. Penals(and i suppose cons in a way) rifles, pgrens and volks.
I dont think this is a bad thing though cons and penals step on each others toes a bit. With exception of pgrens due to timing and cost, you have bread and butter all range infantry that are flexible enough to fit various roles but specialize in none, thereby creating the long range and short range niches that other units can fill.

If I'm playing soviets and go guards, cons and flame engineers are my close range infantry tools. If I go shocks instead, they function as my long range support.

The same applies to STG volks. If I choose to grab an extra sturmpioneer I use my STG volks for long range support, if go for double obers they support the obers by taking up the short range/screening role.

These units are your line infantry, a generalist role that is too important to just give up. You wouldnt force a us player to choose between only HVAP rounds or only HE rounds on a sherman.
23 May 2020, 06:22 AM
#90
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 04:56 AMSerrith



First. Allied upgrades were not because of STGs, bolster and weapon racks existed when volks still had shreks.

racks were a bad design at start,but could have been refined instead of simply reduced. the idea keep in mind was that generalist infantry, at great cost, fill the role of elite infantry as the sock lineup lacked it. volks vet reduction started in part because of the issue where the shrek generated additional vet because of armour exp value but it was gutted entierly in the most recent rework along with every vet in every unit.
bloster as well was a shit and i mean SHIT designed ability... i mean "lets increase the dps and health of an already elite unit by 25% with no drawbacks at all, and also make it a global cause thats brilliant and totally wont destroy any possibility of balancing anything related to the unit... oh and less also give it weapon racks" screams WTF are they thinking.... but i digress there. it was a given that a faction released was going to be broken OP because it inspires people to buy the dlc....


The fact that 7 man cons fare poorly against obers has no bearing on if Volks should be able to fight cost effectively in general.

well yes and no. whats important is that the faction has an answer to the threat. volks will fight just fine against cons until they get 7 man, which requires a whole tech.... which would be when obers and armour would hit. cons and volks could easily be matched all game until the extra manpower for the soviet gives them the advantage where okw turns to superiour quality instead of quantity. timing is important here. the enemy puts more men in their squad you get a squad that can quickly kill men faster. they hit around the same time...

The fact k98 volks get stomped by penals does not mean conscripts should be weaker.

it would if cons got SVTs by default and also didnt need vet or extra cost to unlock their quickly thrown molitov that also throws fire meaning any infantry they face outside of cover get filled with holes and anything in cover gets burned with minimal risk until they leave cover so they can be filled with holes..... and also penals were not a divergent tech from other support units and instead guaranteed access-- you know what? soviet and okw dont really have the same tech structure to compare this properly lets settle with factions with AI infantry should be leaning on them for AI duties, not simply having them as an alternative investment to their mainline. cons and volks are the most alike as 2 opposing factions units are in the entire game, from weapons to abilities to intended role. this is why they are so comparable, but volks also have guaranteed support of both mgs and elite infantry, this is important to consider when thinking about volks. they are not rifles whos stock "elite infantry" consists of a rifle squad, but one model has a thompson and at max vet will sprint (very very exciting)

In addition, cons are not having their cover bonus removed, it is only getting reduced and it still doesnt change the fact that they have 17% more firepower at all ranges then a stock con squad to begin with.

yes and when does that hit the field exactly? ah yes... the latests of any upgrade of the game.... and instead of concentrating DPS, like all the other upgrades of the game, it grants an extra man. dont pretend that 7 man isnt balanced by being delayed until the tech you build your tanks from when lmg42 come from the first tech after grens hit the field, STGs come from the first tech you build, BARs and BRENs come at variable times but can be slapped on anything but all of them make losing models less impactful on DPS.... 7 man is good, for sure, but its balanced by literally being in the armies top tech (or after ~70 fuel in sidegrades and 2 tiers of tech)

Volks vet nerfs began when they still spotted shreks as it was silly you could have an ultra durable spammable squad with affordable reinforcement that could engage vehicles effectively. It is incorrect to address volks vet nerfs solely-or even majority based- on the stg upgrade.

as i said earlier, while they did receive nerfs to the vet when a 235mp squad could gain vet in 0.000005673 seconds because appearently a cheap spammable unit having guranteed pen against all stcok armour is a great idea, they had it right rogered since the stgs, something im confident wouldnt have happened if any thought at all was applied when replacing the shrek upgrade.

The fact is that with the exception of brits, all factions have at least one squad that is moderately effective at all ranges with a slight emphasis towards one range or another. Penals(and i suppose cons in a way) rifles, pgrens and volks.
I dont think this is a bad thing though cons and penals step on each others toes a bit. With exception of pgrens due to timing and cost, you have bread and butter all range infantry that are flexible enough to fit various roles but specialize in none, thereby creating the long range and short range niches that other units can fill.

ok at all ranges vs better at all ranges are a different entirely.
pgrens you keep at range and focus fire. they bleed heavily and lose dps quickly. if they try and close unfavorably they will take heavy losses, but will also lose at range to rifle infantry
penals are admittedly not ina good spot imo, i have said so in the past for the same reason as stg volks but at least HEAVILY pay for thier power with map control (you can have 3 volks on field while the enemy builds their 2nd penal and you will STILL have your sturms vs their CE... massive disparity in potential map control as well as gooning potential)
there are drawbacks.
and rifles were actually designed to perform like that. its intended and the entier faction was built on that.
whats more, none of those squads can easily force the enemy out of a preferred position like volks can from a mile away int he blink of an eye. this wouldnt be an issue if it wasnt stacked with a STG that allows volks to engage on their terms but also punish an enemy trying to engage on their terms. closing over fire hurts. cover fighting in fire hurts.


you have bread and butter all range infantry that are flexible enough to fit various roles but specialize in none, thereby creating the long range and short range niches that other units can fill.

this is it though, volks with stgs dont become just flexible infantry that are flexible to fit and specialize nowhere, the specialise upclose and are still flexible to fight at range, except you cant cover fight them due to flame nades. they are simply better than anything because they mix flexibility AND specialization. you need elite assault infantry to fight them upclose, and anything less than shocks will get chewed up closing, then get mulched after they closed. thats poor design.
swapping the stg for the mp40 would ACTUALLY create diversity because its not one unit to do everything.


If I'm playing soviets and go guards, cons and flame engineers are my close range infantry tools. If I go shocks instead, they function as my long range support.

The same applies to STG volks. If I choose to grab an extra sturmpioneer I use my STG volks for long range support, if go for double obers they support the obers by taking up the short range/screening role.


yes relative positioning is a thing, thats intended and very much a good thing. there isnt anything wrong with dynamic combat, but as i said above stg volks are able to deny their enemy the ability to leverage that while retaining the capacity themselves.

and by making the upgrade require some thought by instead of making it better at all ranges but instead specialize in one you create diversity and relative positioning. like combining ppsh cons and saving some for weapon drops or to save muni for other things both bring differnt things to the table but both may be at the table at the same time, fighting for the same plate even!

in your scenario, if your sturms get pushed off you take up the slack with the volks and dont lose your potential to thrash the enemy up close, lose your shock and you are in for a really tough time in the cqb fight with just cons.
for ypur second scenario mp40 volks would do the same thing as the stg volks, they just couldnt seamlessly transition as they please and the enemy would have a decision to make on how to engage you

there is a difference between NEEDING to use combined arms and electing to for the sake of it


these units are your line infantry, a generalist role that is too important to just give up. You wouldnt force a us player to choose between only HVAP rounds or only HE rounds on a sherman.

no but you wouldnt slap a combo shell that is HE and HVAP at the same time, and also give it WP and TWP on the sherman either or you would never see a jackson no matter how good it is, nor a scott no matter how fast it kills because you have one unit that can fill oll the roles reasonably well and dictate how it fights.

im not saying make volks useless, im saying they shouldnt be a skeleton key to everything all the time when tere are other tools designed to fill certain roles. im saying lest have a little fucking thought proccess behind upgrading our units not simply "do i have the munitions because this power spike is going to be so fucking awesome" and that goes across all factions, not just the one with a no drawback, early hitting weapon upgrade on already versatile infantry.
23 May 2020, 07:38 AM
#91
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 547

...



I think a lot of this is overestimating the power of the volks STG44. Yes its a decent weapon but the damage curve and output are more like a ober K98 or paratrooper carbine, not an FG42 or Pgren mp44- Hell, Ober K98s out dps volks STGs at point blank range. I mentioned this before but I'll say it again, cons in cover have a reasonable chance of beating charging STG44 volks, Cons in cover will lose the majority of the time to charging MP40 volks.
What makes the STG upgrade strong at the moment isn't the power increase(its not actually that big), its the timing it arrives at- a time when most other factions cant afford racks, lack the CP for elite units or the tech for upgrades. There is a window where STG volks are going to be better then the competition if you can afford their upgrades, but the relative power evens out in the mid and late game. If this power spike is problematic, then you can lock the upgrade behind 2 tech structures instead of 1.

Volks with K98s simply do not cut it in the late game. They are fairly close to vanila cons in firepower, but lack the low reinforcement cost and overall durability(especially with vet). Buffing Vet is insufficient, as was shown with cons who had(and still do) some of the best vet bonuses for a mainline infantry, but were still underwhelming in the late game and thus received the 7 man upgrade. An upgrade which -I might add- is just a flat bonus to the squad, its a "no brainer" upgrade, yet I consider it a necessity for cons.
MP40 volks would arguably scale even WORSE. Assault grens don't scale very well in the late game even now when they have a 6 man upgrade and superior received accuracy and vet over volks on top of having the important sprint ability.

The only way I could see K98 volks being useful in the lategame is if you made them cheaper units with throwaway model costs. If you give them a upgrade that reduced volks reinforce costt unlock able after the Flak HQ is fully upgraded or even just make it a passive at that point, this would allow K98 volks to come close to cons in terms of cost effectiveness without weapon upgrades(and the other benefits cons receive from their 7 man upgrade).
23 May 2020, 07:43 AM
#92
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8845 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 07:38 AMSerrith

...

Point here is that all infantries are contentiously receiving buffs because of VG MP44 and Panals SVT leading to power creep.

By removing stock MP44 and making SVT an upgrade one can stop the power creep.

One would also increase the effects of relative positioning make tactical moves more important.
(profile of the MP44 is actually close to the of PF G43)
23 May 2020, 09:05 AM
#93
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 111

wait.. is this becoming a "volks are op" thread?
What the hell?
23 May 2020, 09:48 AM
#94
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8845 | Subs: 1

wait.. is this becoming a "volks are op" thread?
What the hell?

it is not about being op or not its about being badly designed.
23 May 2020, 11:36 AM
#95
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 547

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 07:43 AMVipper

Point here is that all infantries are contentiously receiving buffs because of VG MP44 and Panals SVT leading to power creep.

By removing stock MP44 and making SVT an upgrade one can stop the power creep.

One would also increase the effects of relative positioning make tactical moves more important.
(profile of the MP44 is actually close to the of PF G43)


Even if volks hadnt received the MP44 and we discount any buffs to infantry sections and rifles since then, stock rifles and rifles with BARs, and infantry sections bolstered and/or with brens clean k98 volks clock hard.
If anything volks recieved MP44s because rifles and sections were too strong. And incidentally I recall this change being an extremely popular idea on Coh2.org, an idea that some of the posters in this very thread strongly advocated.
23 May 2020, 11:43 AM
#96
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8845 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 11:36 AMSerrith


Even if volks hadnt received the MP44 and we discount any buffs to infantry sections and rifles since then, stock rifles and rifles with BARs, and infantry sections bolstered and/or with brens clean k98 volks clock hard.

If there was a need one could the proceed in nerfing BAR/Bren (brens did get nerf) instead of having to buff conscripts and Grenadiers.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 11:36 AMSerrith

If anything volks recieved MP44s because rifles and sections were too strong.

Bot really, VG got MP44 when they lost their shreck. And then they had to lose their vet superiority because they where too strong. (after Penal where nerfed for being OP)

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 11:36 AMSerrith

And incidentally I recall this change being an extremely popular idea on Coh2.org, an idea that some of the posters in this very thread strongly advocated.

Well people are entitled to change their opinion after testing thing thoroughly. I for one pointed out the problem of Penal and razed concern about MP44from preview (the profile was not available for MP44 at the time so testing was not enough to be sure of how much of an issue it was).
23 May 2020, 12:21 PM
#97
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 310 | Subs: 1

Hetzer+mp40s are in a really good spot right now, i'd say maybe making hetzer 10 less fuel but no more than that, or making the mg upgrade come with it wihtout requiring muni, but eh, not neccessary.
23 May 2020, 12:43 PM
#98
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8845 | Subs: 1

Hetzer+mp40s are in a really good spot right now, i'd say maybe making hetzer 10 less fuel but no more than that, or making the mg upgrade come with it wihtout requiring muni, but eh, not neccessary.

Mp40 VG would be in better spot as separate units similar to AsIs.
23 May 2020, 12:57 PM
#99
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 310 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 12:43 PMVipper

Mp40 VG would be in better spot as separate units similar to AsIs.

no.
23 May 2020, 13:03 PM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15720 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2020, 12:43 PMVipper

Mp40 VG would be in better spot as separate units similar to AsIs.

No, they wouldn't.
They would be economical mess, completely messing up current muni to mp spending balance of okw.
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