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Why must the mainline USF infantry cost so much?

19 May 2020, 04:09 AM
#1
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1253

The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.
19 May 2020, 04:50 AM
#2
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 611

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 04:09 AMMittens
The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.




All mainline infantry uses this formula to calculate its reinforce cost:

Cost / 2 / # of squad members.

Note: Infantry sections’ cost is calculated as if they have bolster


Rifles perform well for their cost after their recent buff.
19 May 2020, 05:36 AM
#3
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 359 | Subs: 1





All mainline infantry uses this formula to calculate its reinforce cost:

Cost / 2 / # of squad members.

Note: Infantry sections’ cost is calculated as if they have bolster


Rifles perform well for their cost after their recent buff.

*Used to.

Volks, upgraded Conscripts, and T4 Ostheer infantry immediately come to mind, but there are other earlier examples (stock pgrens I think)
19 May 2020, 07:02 AM
#4
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 04:09 AMMittens
The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.



Axis OP.

I charged my Riflemen across red cover vs Volks in sandbags and only barely won the fight.

Worse still, I charged into an MG42 headfirst with my Riflemen and lost the engagement.

With the IS buff, USF no longer has the strongest, most cost-efficient mainline. This is made worse by getting free officer squads with teching, which results in less MP income. Something needs to be done about this.
19 May 2020, 15:25 PM
#5
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 447




Axis OP.

I charged my Riflemen across red cover vs Volks in sandbags and only barely won the fight.

Worse still, I charged into an MG42 headfirst with my Riflemen and lost the engagement.

With the IS buff, USF no longer has the strongest, most cost-efficient mainline. This is made worse by getting free officer squads with teching, which results in less MP income. Something needs to be done about this.


I hear vehicle crews are also a huge problem as you can only repair with them if you take them OUT of the vehicle. Imagine if Ostheer was saddled with this burden.
19 May 2020, 19:07 PM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333

OP:
I understand your statement, seriously. Riflemen are not cheap, clearly.
I might point out that the riflemen design is something like a early available infantry that will scale up pretty well to lategame, meaning that the player have to focus on preservation as core strategy. Wich sounds logical.
As a counter example OKW volks (IMHO scale too well, too much i mean) should be soon or later be replaced by obersoldaten (even though ober have no snare) because time wise volks should stop being reliable at some point between mid game and late game. Its a design perspective balance.

So, riflemen cost reflect some of that design, its harsh economically in early game but you are guaranteed to have better infantry along the match if you keep the squad alive. Other have combinations of squads or have the squads locked until later stages of the game. Pre-pgren patch, were a good example of tool denyal for OST. UKF IS have a similar design but they have no snare, putting them between elite infantry and mainline infantry, bolster is the only reason they are bleed cost effective.
19 May 2020, 19:12 PM
#7
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

If Riflemen are expensive, what does that make Grenadiers?
19 May 2020, 19:28 PM
#8
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 75

19 May 2020, 21:06 PM
#10
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1803 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 04:09 AMMittens
The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.


because the< have 5 men, wehr dont /thread
19 May 2020, 21:48 PM
#11
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1961

ok. 5 models rifles cost 280mp. means 56mp per model
grens cost 240 mp for 4models. means 60mp per model.

SO: grens are more expansive than rifles
19 May 2020, 22:29 PM
#12
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 1

Could maybe convince me that 25 mp for RE reinforce is too much, but I think everything else is fine

Grens are not more expensive than Riflemen. Slightly more to reinforce yes, but they also aren't designed to run straight at their target. Whatever problems grens have, it's not cost
19 May 2020, 22:30 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15462 | Subs: 7

ok. 5 models rifles cost 280mp. means 56mp per model
grens cost 240 mp for 4models. means 60mp per model.

SO: grens are more expansive than rifles

What's higher? 3 times 30 or 4 times 28?
Take all time you need to do the math. Don't confuse it with meth this time.
19 May 2020, 22:34 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7208 | Subs: 1

Could maybe convince me that 25 mp for RE reinforce is too much, but I think everything else is fine

Grens are not more expensive than Riflemen. Slightly more to reinforce yes, but they also aren't designed to run straight at their target. Whatever problems grens have, it's not cost


With 2 weapon slots, there's no way that RE will ever be lower to reinforce than 25mp.
19 May 2020, 22:37 PM
#15
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 22:30 PMKatitof

What's higher? 3 times 30 or 4 times 28?
Take all time you need to do the math. Don't confuse it with meth this time.


Could say the same thing about HP-pool: 4x80 vs. 5x80.
19 May 2020, 22:46 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15462 | Subs: 7



Could say the same thing about HP-pool: 4x80 vs. 5x80.

Actually, grens have higher EHP then rifles vs small arms. 7% higher I believe?
19 May 2020, 23:04 PM
#17
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 22:46 PMKatitof
Actually, grens have higher EHP then rifles vs small arms. 7% higher I believe?


Vet 0 and Vet 1 (no defensive bonuses)
Grens: 4x80/0.91 = 351.65 ehp
Rifles: 5x80/0.97 = 412.37 ehp

Rifles have 17.26% more ehp


Rifles Vet 2 (-23% RA): 5x80/(0.97/1.23) = 507.22 ehp
Grens Vet 2: same as vet 1, since there's no defensive bonuses = 351.65 ehp

Rifles have 44.2% more ehp


Rifles Vet 3 (-23% and -15% RA): 5x80/((0.97/1.23)/1.15) = 583.3 ehp
Grens vet 3 (-20% DR): 4x80/0.91x1.2 = 421.98 ehp

Rifles have 38.23% more ehp
20 May 2020, 00:34 AM
#18
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 377 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 22:30 PMKatitof

What's higher? 3 times 30 or 4 times 28?
Take all time you need to do the math. Don't confuse it with meth this time.



If anyone is trading 4 rifle models for 3 gren models he's getting outplayed hard.
20 May 2020, 00:56 AM
#19
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 1



With 2 weapon slots, there's no way that RE will ever be lower to reinforce than 25mp.


Yeah thats true I guess. Thats my thing though you need to double equip them for it to be worth that. Otherwise 25mp is crazy for what they give you

Unrelated, I think they should really make the sweeper take up a weapon slot on Royals and Rears. Don't understand why you can have 2 zooks/piats and a sweeper
20 May 2020, 00:57 AM
#20
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 376

As a counter example OKW volks (IMHO scale too well, too much i mean) should be soon or later be replaced by obersoldaten (even though ober have no snare) because time wise volks should stop being reliable at some point between mid game and late game. Its a design perspective balance.


Strongly disagree with this. Main reason would be volk is cheap to reinforce, and bigger squad size help them to stay alive.

In a match, you don't need an elite damage dealer, you need good number of affordable and reliable infantry to stay presence at everywhere in the battlefield. The rest is placing them at tactical position to give advantage against enemy.
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