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russian armor

Close the pocket

17 May 2020, 19:56 PM
#1
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 818

Now that sim cities are gone is there any reason why this ability still can delete 90pop cap worth of armies in seconds?

I know some top 2vs2 players will say it's not meta but it's really a plague in 4vs4 randoms when newbies don't know how to react. A lot of 4vs4 players are just ignorant of anything "not in their lane" so it leaves basically no counterplay in randoms. You also can't counter the arty like you can with skill planes etc.

Sure we all love watching Dane cream his pants every time someone clicks the button but it's getting pretty old now.

Possibly decrease lethality and drop the muni price a bit?
17 May 2020, 19:58 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2209

No.
17 May 2020, 20:28 PM
#3
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 793 | Subs: 1

No.


I second this

He has to decap points first, which means you can see it comin and if you instantly order all your stuff back to base, you should be fine
17 May 2020, 20:29 PM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15470 | Subs: 7



I second this

He has to decap points first, which means you can see it comin and if you instantly order all your stuff back to base, you should be fine

There is special stuka in that doctrine that can decap into FoW.
Or at least could last time I've used it.
17 May 2020, 20:35 PM
#5
avatar of suora

Posts: 30

How often do you see this ability used to think it's an issue?
17 May 2020, 21:57 PM
#6
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2209

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2020, 20:29 PMKatitof

There is special stuka in that doctrine that can decap into FoW.
Or at least could last time I've used it.


yes but what maps have only 1 main cutoff? and also there is a fuel/ammo cache on the cutoff at that stage 8 out of 10 times, making the stuka useless.


Close the Pocket is considered as meme or toy by majority of the community and it doesnt work in 3 digit ranks or better. Smart players will always have an eye on the cutoff and protect it with a cache.. sometimes just from looking at enemy commanders in load screen alone
17 May 2020, 21:58 PM
#7
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4103 | Subs: 1

Fuck no. Close the pocket is a template of the type of abilities we NEED in the game. They they that isn't just "hahah I have Los, they vet on this unit is gone. Gosh I'm so good!" and more with actually fucking criteria that focuses on doing something and rewarding you for it. There's isn't another damn ability in the game that has more criteria. Build a single cache and it's useless. L2p ect ect but unironicly. This ability is a prime example of risk/reward
17 May 2020, 22:25 PM
#8
avatar of Musti

Posts: 201

Close the pocket is fun/stupid for some incredibly delicious/annoying 4vs4 cheese, and not much else.
1. Get 3 friends and play 4vs4 as OST
2. Redball Express comes up
3. Everyone picks Breakthrough
4. Play as normal.
5. Everyone uses CTP at the same time.
6. Fireworks
7. Profit?
17 May 2020, 23:00 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2020, 22:25 PMMusti
Close the pocket is fun/stupid for some incredibly delicious/annoying 4vs4 cheese, and not much else.
1. Get 3 friends and play 4vs4 as OST
2. Redball Express comes up
3. Everyone picks Breakthrough
4. Play as normal.
5. Everyone uses CTP at the same time.
6. Fireworks
7. Profit?

Waste of resourese tbh. CTP is very strong. Imo the biggest problem is everyone wants to get the whole front inside it. Even zoning 1 strong point at a time is REALLY strong. Strong builfimg/ okw sws stronghold. Cut it off and bam.... It' can be applied in bite sized chunks. The whole tactical position of the game is gone and everything is applied at a strategic level now
17 May 2020, 23:08 PM
#10
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1542

No.


LOL

Points scored for being succinct.

The only good thing about he doctrine is Close the Pocket. Due to that, I wouldn't nerf it.

Most maps require two points to be neutral to use the ability. One notable exception is Poltawa which has that and other faults.

18 May 2020, 00:10 AM
#11
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1095 | Subs: 2

As a 4v4 only player:
- Red Ball
- White Ball
- Road to Arnhem
- La Gleize

Have good CTP options. LaGleize is almost the easiest to pull of yet no one ever uses the ability on the map. All you need to do is drop on the cutoff outside the base(if no cache) then CTP.

Nordwind has strong cutoffs in the North. One could let the enemy have the North, then just push the cutoff. But by 12-14 CPs you have probably already lost the match.

I am torn on CTP. Its fun as hell to pull off. But I agree with the OPs point that it may be a bad experience for newer casual players. The first time it happened to me, I was really confused. If it wasnt for people in chat talking about it, I would have been a little annoyed. And since all the pros here proclaim its not used in high level games, why even have it? To punish noobs when you have a premade team?
18 May 2020, 04:36 AM
#12
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 818

No.


Why? I think if the doctrine was reworked into a theme of cutting supply lines with multiple abilities it would be much better than a "delete all enemy units" design we currently have.

You could replace CTP with a passive capture buff for all infantry. Then decrease the muni cost of the doctrinal decap abilities, maybe have the stuka destroy a sector point until it's repaired. Etc etc

This would make the doctrine viable in 1vs1 too.
18 May 2020, 04:42 AM
#13
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 818

Fuck no. Close the pocket is a template of the type of abilities we NEED in the game. They they that isn't just "hahah I have Los, they vet on this unit is gone. Gosh I'm so good!" and more with actually fucking criteria that focuses on doing something and rewarding you for it. There's isn't another damn ability in the game that has more criteria. Build a single cache and it's useless. L2p ect ect but unironicly. This ability is a prime example of risk/reward


The reward should never be strong enough to ruin a 4vs4 game by deleting every army

Obviously pro players and AT teams can counter it. But it ruins a lot of mid and newbie range 4vs4 random games. Commander needs a rework

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2020, 20:35 PMsuora
How often do you see this ability used to think it's an issue?


At my level in mid tier 4vs4 (I'm not "pro") maybe one in every three times I play maps like redball. I've never really seen it do anything but frustrate players and ruin what are usually fun games until the CTP activation.

18 May 2020, 09:06 AM
#14
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 175

With all the requirement and gambling Close The Pocket require it has to give some reward.

To set up a Close the Pocket you have to neutral at least 2 points, which often mean destroy 2 caches. And how do you accomplish that? Assuming one Stormtroops can destroy and cap 1 point, how you destroy the second?

With the most favorable case (without caches built), you will have to spend 340 MP( Stormtroops)+80 mun (stuka)+ Close the Pocket (200 mun).

And taking this commander is also a huge gamble because you have nothing good except Close the Pocket. No big tank,call-in (Puma/Agren/Ostruppen/CP4),utility such as scope or smoke or Lefh.

Conclusion: Set up Close the Pocket require a lot of time and ressources and the reward must be good enough. It even has reliable counter contrary to some other ability (*cough* Anti-Tank overwatch *cough*).
18 May 2020, 13:03 PM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4103 | Subs: 1



The reward should never be strong enough to ruin a 4vs4 game by deleting every army

Obviously pro players and AT teams can counter it. But it ruins a lot of mid and newbie range 4vs4 random games. Commander needs a rework



At my level in mid tier 4vs4 (I'm not "pro") maybe one in every three times I play maps like redball. I've never really seen it do anything but frustrate players and ruin what are usually fun games until the CTP activation.


If 4 players can't defend their cut off that's on them. I play team games, and the first thing many ayers do it cache the cut off. New players will learn very quickly
18 May 2020, 13:42 PM
#16
avatar of Musti

Posts: 201


Waste of resourese tbh.

Thats why I said "fun cheese", anyway is it though? I'd say destroying 4 armies is worth it (most of the time it's a win button)
Imo the biggest problem is everyone wants to get the whole front inside it.

Why not? it's somewhat easy and quick to do. Redball only needs 2 points to cutoff the entire frontline, and there are 4 players, there's even a nice house right next to one of the cutoffs from with your storms can spawn.
You just have to get a little creative. Caches won't help much, they'll just delay things a bit ;)
18 May 2020, 13:47 PM
#17
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 175

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2020, 13:42 PMMusti

Thats why I said "fun cheese", anyway is it though? I'd say destroying 4 armies is worth it (most of the time it's a win button)

Why not? it's somewhat easy and quick to do. Redball only needs 2 points to cutoff the entire frontline, and there are 4 players, there's even a nice house right next to one of the cutoffs from with your storms can spawn.
You just have to get a little creative. Caches won't help much, they'll just delay things a bit ;)


Then be even more creative and blow the house
18 May 2020, 14:00 PM
#18
avatar of Musti

Posts: 201

Then be even more creative and blow the house

I know, been there, done that. I've been both the cheeser and the chesee, many times.
That of course only slows things down, doesn't stop them. ;0
18 May 2020, 14:23 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8571 | Subs: 1

The ability can be countered by:

Cashes
recaping cut off
Moving troops since the artillery trucks target rather slowly
18 May 2020, 14:41 PM
#20
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2020, 13:42 PMMusti

Thats why I said "fun cheese", anyway is it though? I'd say destroying 4 armies is worth it (most of the time it's a win button)

Why not? it's somewhat easy and quick to do. Redball only needs 2 points to cutoff the entire frontline, and there are 4 players, there's even a nice house right next to one of the cutoffs from with your storms can spawn.
You just have to get a little creative. Caches won't help much, they'll just delay things a bit ;)

So what you see saying is you literally have to defend one of 2 spots and the ability will do nothing... But you don't want to so the ability punishes that....
The smallest amount of effort and toy won't lose 4 armies worth of units plain and simple. It's as counterable as can be. 250mp across 4 players isn't too much to ask...
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