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Pioneers after early game

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20 May 2020, 10:12 AM
#261
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4326



Exactly, yet I find people keep referring to that awful merge guide on reddit that recommends merging into guards 24/7 and not reinforcing them. This is what happens when rank 600s make community guides.
people tell u to merge 24 7 on the field not at base unless u need mp, cause u would rather have cons with stv or guard weapon to fight
20 May 2020, 11:27 AM
#266
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087



The fact I fully agree with orangepest and yet I find barely any hope for you after that “analysis” of yours should really ring a bell as to how wrong you are.


Wel, what can I say. I'm not a fan of your analysis, either. :) Too many myths - too little insight.
20 May 2020, 11:42 AM
#267
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087



Those suggestiones where supported by fewer people. You and maybe 2 others. And the facts havent changed. People choose to interpet facts in different ways.

quantity vs quality maybe? I wouldn't say that there are that many people who don't see the unjustified price difference lategame, especially when you also look at echelons, sappers and crews.

The facts are pio,s can do more however not in pure combat but in abilities and utility wich last the game. ce's shine earlier but are less relevant late game then pio,s.

These are not facts. These are your opinions. The utility is the same in real life game situations. The ideas you keep repeating are just wrong. CEs give you more advantages by simply being cheaper. Also the abilities they have are simply more useful and cheaper. The number of abilities is not the key factor. The key is what abilities they have and how useful they are. Remember that ostheer pios play against three types of armies and tbh they seem to be the worst in comparison to all of them (either too expensive or too weak).
20 May 2020, 12:07 PM
#268
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 586


quantity vs quality maybe? I wouldn't say that there are that many people who don't see the unjustified price difference lategame, especially when you also look at echelons, sappers and crews.

These are not facts. These are your opinions. The utility is the same in real life game situations. The ideas you keep repeating are just wrong. CEs give you more advantages by simply being cheaper. Also the abilities they have are simply more useful and cheaper. The number of abilities is not the key factor. The key is what abilities they have and how useful they are. Remember that ostheer pios play against three types of armies and tbh they seem to be the worst in comparison to all of them (either too expensive or too weak).


The cheaper price is what makes them even. Doing more should and does cost more. Example both p4,s doe more/better then a t34/76 and it costs more.

You point out ost fights 3 different factions. That doesnt change the pio ce matchup. Pio's support the best t0 mg in the game throughout the game, they passivly give advantidges to every unit near them. Ce's do a great job with the scout car wich only lasts 1 or 2 minutes. Merge also works wonders for ce's esp early on against low vet un upgraded inf, but there is a cost and risk involved here. With pio's not so much, just put them near a pak or mg42 for example and (however small) profit.
20 May 2020, 12:10 PM
#269
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1087



The cheaper price is what makes them even. Doing more should and does cost more. Example both p4,s doe more/better then a t34/76 and it costs more.

You point out ost fights 3 different factions. That doesnt change the pio ce matchup. Pio's support the best t0 mg in the game throughout the game, they passivly give advantidges to every unit near them. Ce's do a great job with the scout car wich only lasts 1 or 2 minutes. Merge also works wonders for ce's esp early on against low vet un upgraded inf, but there is a cost and risk involved here. With pio's not so much, just put them near a pak or mg42 for example and (however small) profit.


You should play ost. Hit a few mines with 4 men squads. Get your minefields run over by vehicles and tellers spotted. Also charge CEs with grens or pios when they are behind cover. See for yourself how much "better" pios are. You are simply wrong and play too little ost imo. Everything you keep repeating suggests that you only play Sov or allies.
20 May 2020, 12:15 PM
#270
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15425 | Subs: 7



You should play ost. Hit a few mines with 4 men squads. Get your minefields run over by vehicles and tellers spotted. Also charge CEs with grens or pios when they are behind cover. See for yourself how much "better" pios are. You are simply wrong and play too little ost imo.

Pios ARE much better.

Being in constant denial about it, while deflecting all arguments for it, pretending they don't exist or aren't valid isn't going to change that.
20 May 2020, 13:05 PM
#271
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8520 | Subs: 1


Pioneers simply have high XP value and high reinforcement cost.
20 May 2020, 13:46 PM
#272
avatar of suora

Posts: 26

Amazing how you managed to do 10+ pages of offtopic debate on whether pios or engineers are better, two units which are both just fine for their cost and role
20 May 2020, 13:55 PM
#273
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 586

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 13:05 PMVipper

Pioneers simply have high XP value and high reinforcement cost.


Yes their vet is the area where they should be buffed. And if possible allow them to vet after being replaced. The latter is the same for ce's.
20 May 2020, 14:18 PM
#274
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4079 | Subs: 1

u mean the vet 1 ? or the bunker than can be built by green too ?

sandbags are there cause u can't put them on green, i u want they can be removed from cons and put on CE :romeoHype:

they have worse dos than RE and can't go to 5 men, UKF just got a non doc CQC cause they did not have good CQC but by ur logic RE would have been enough


Does it matter why it's there? It IS there and it's undisputable. Pios can build sand bags. CE Can not. Pios can do a utility job CE can't. Just like pios can scout and CE can't or pios can heal themselves and other units and CE can't. Or pios can build bunkers and CE can't. These are all utility tasks that pios can do and CE can't. CE can fight AT RANGE better and pios can fight up close better.

Re come later and there was no panzergrens unit to transition into. Furthermore I think bolster is shit designed BUT sappers were designed with it in mind. Ukf lacked nondoc assault infantry, ost does not and anyways that is entirely irrelevant to the "they cost more and are worse than CE discussion some people have cooked up. Pios are well costed to what they can do as they are packed with NONCOMBAT ability as well as being combat capable if used well. CE have the DPS of 2/3 a con squad and...trip flares?
20 May 2020, 14:26 PM
#275
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15425 | Subs: 7



Does it matter why it's there? It IS there and it's undisputable. Pios can build sand bags. CE Can not. Pios can do a utility job CE can't. Just like pios can scout and CE can't or pios can heal themselves and other units and CE can't. Or pios can build bunkers and CE can't. These are all utility tasks that pios can do and CE can't. CE can fight AT RANGE better and pios can fight up close better.


Lets also not forget that doctrines expand pios utility by providing them much more tools and combat potential, while the only additional utility CEs had doctrinally was scrapped away from the game.
20 May 2020, 15:03 PM
#276
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8520 | Subs: 1

Both Pioneers and CE can get a number of doctrinal bonuses.
20 May 2020, 16:02 PM
#277
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 13:05 PMVipper

Pioneers simply have high XP value and high reinforcement cost.


Their XP is in line with other engineers apart from sturms

And their reinforcement is reduced at T4 making them super cheap and good at capping
20 May 2020, 16:26 PM
#278
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8520 | Subs: 1



Their XP is in line with other engineers apart from sturms

No it is not. They have more XP values than CE and RE and the same RO that can get 5 men and 2 weapon including AT weapons.



And their reinforcement is reduced at T4 making them super cheap and good at capping

That is simply incorrect.

They reinforce with 23 when CE reinforce with 21 an and conscripts with 18.


When T4 is built they can not kill anything thus they can not vet up.
20 May 2020, 16:29 PM
#279
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 16:26 PMVipper

No it is not. They have more XP values than CE and RE and the same RO that can get 5 men and 2 weapon including AT weapons.



That is simply incorrect.

They reinforce with 23 when CE reinforce with 21 an and conscripts with 18.


When T4 is built they can not kill anything thus they can not vet up.


Actually you're wrong, flamers will vet up a unit much faster than mid game PIAT or brens on Royal engies can. You are going off the incorrect basis AT XP values were never nerfed. It used to be AT inf vet up faster but now flamers are king.

Doctrinal 5man flame pios with T4 buffs are arguably the best all round engie in the game
20 May 2020, 16:40 PM
#280
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8520 | Subs: 1



Actually you're wrong.

No you are wrong.


flamers will vet up a unit much faster than mid game PIAT or brens on Royal engies can. You are going off the incorrect basis AT XP values were never nerfed. It used to be AT inf vet up faster but now flamers are king.

Try hitting a vehicles with AT grenade from RO and see how fast it vets.

And since flamer in your opinion are "Kings" the king of vetting are CE with their lower XP value, their superior Mosins, merge and higher XP value targets.


Doctrinal 5man flame pios with T4 buffs are arguably the best all round engie in the game


Not really and for 225/90 units it probably UP.

Doctrinal bolstered Ro.E with 210/60 cost are better and come with snare.

Assault engineers wipe the floor with pioneers and are available from CP 0.
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